Yudhisthira vs Duryodhana: The Legitimacy of the Claim to Throne - Page 8

Originally posted by: surabhi01

So ugrsen is dwariika king not mathura king after kansa killed?

As far as I remember Mathura and Dwarika both were Yadava territories and both were ruled by Ugrasena. After the killing of Satyabhama's father Satrajit, Krishna sends Akroora back to Mathura to serve as a regent representing Ugrasena.

The line of succession was:

Ugrasena->Vasudeva->Balarama->Krishna->Pradyumna->Anirudhha->Vajra.

In the Prabhasa Yadava massacre (Mausala Parva), Balarama to Anirudhha were killed/left their bodies, and Vasudeva committed suicide when he came to know this.

So after Ugrasena, poora line bypass karke Vajra becomes the king of Mathura (only M, as Dwarika is engulfed in the great tsunami).

Originally posted by: RamKiSeeta

We're talking about their rights over the throne before the dice game happened, as Duryodhana too gambled Hastinapura in the dice game, same as Yudhisthira. Only difference is that Yudi lost, but both of them gambled their respective kingdoms, so if we're going to blame one, then blame the other also. Duryodhana gambled everything that Yudhisthira gambled, which people seem to forget, including his own brothers, wife and wealth. He only did not lose because of Shakuni's cheating, otherwise he too may have lost some to Yudhisthira. So we cannot blame one and hail the other as a great King. If we take the dice game out of the quotient and judge solely based on how the epic describes their Kingship, then yes Yudhisthira was a superior King. You can read about why he was a good King during the whole chapter preceding the Rajasuya yagna, which describes how Yudhisthira turned the barren Khandavaprastha into a flouring kingdom with happy people.

Vidura was not selected as King, because he had even lesser claim than Pandu and Dhrit. Both Pandu and Dhrit were biological sons of the Queens of Hastinapura, so they had claim to the throne. Vidura on the other hand was neither the son of the King or Queen. So in reality he had no claim over the throne. Moreover, Pandu was elder to Vidura, so once they deemed him capable, he became King.

Dhrit never officially became King after Pandu's death. He was only the regent until Pandu's heirs returned to the Kingdom. Moreover, he ruled under Bhishma and Vidura's guidance as he could fight no wars or take no major decisions being blind. Same as he ruled under Duryodhana's guidance during the exile. So if we say Duryodhana was the unofficial King during exile, then Bhishma/Vidur were the unofficial Kings after Pandu's death. Dhrit merely sat on the throne, but he never really ruled in the true sense. He wasn't only blind, he was also politically incapable of taking any decisions as he was weak-minded. He was an incapable King both physically and politically.

So yes, as Pandu's eldest recognized son, Yudhisthira had greater claim to the throne, also because he was capable. Even IF we take Duryodhana to be capable, Yudhisthira was still elder to him, so out of all the capable heirs (including the other Pandavas and any 'capable' Kauravas), Yudhisthira was elder to them all.

We were discussing selection of King on their merit. I firmly believe that a blindness doesn't mean someone is not capable of ruling a Kingdom. We have handicapped IAS officers who are handling a work related to thousands of paper works in a day and they are very much capable of doing so

Granted, The rules were different back then and they chose Pandu because Dhritarashtra was blind but why Dhritarashtra after Pandu's death? If being Blind didn't let him be the King before means Vidur was much more capable than Dhritrastra

Vidur and Bhishma helped him after Pandu's death, they could have done it before too, Pandu could have helped too, after all Dhritrastra lived most of his life as King of Hastinapur, Vidur and Bhishma helped him and that was their job as his ministers, All Kings had ministers and team of advisors Who helped them

Drithrashtra couldn't fight war, Similarly, Arjun and Bheema fought wars for Yudhishtira, did he win any Kingdom on his own? Fact remains that Dhritarashtra ruled the Kingdom, Pandu didn't appoint anyone and if Duryodhana's claim wasn't right, Bheeshma would have never asked them to bifurcate the Kingdom

Duryodhana didn't stake his Kingdom, The key difference here is that Duryodhana went in gambling with 100% chance of winning against Yudhishtira, He was cautious enough not to involve in a game of dice where one can lose his Kingdom, Yudhishtira went to play with 50% chance of losing his Kingdom. Duryodhana knew there's no chance of his losing so he didn't really put anything at stake

Originally posted by: proteeti

As far as I remember Mathura and Dwarika both were Yadava territories and both were ruled by Ugrasena. After the killing of Satyabhama's father Satrajit, Krishna sends Akroora back to Mathura to serve as a regent representing Ugrasena.

The line of succession was:

Ugrasena->Vasudeva->Balarama->Krishna->Pradyumna->Anirudhha->Vajra.

In the Prabhasa Yadava massacre (Mausala Parva), Balarama to Anirudhha were killed/left their bodies, and Vasudeva committed suicide when he came to know this.

So after Ugrasena, poora line bypass karke Vajra becomes the king of Mathura (only M, as Dwarika is engulfed in the great tsunami).

Well explained! 👏

Also, I want to add that after Kans vadh, Jarasandh (Kans' father-in-law) attacked Mathura multiple times to avenge his SIL's death. Krishna and Balaram defeated him each and every time, but to protect the Yadavas, they created the island kingdom of Dwaraka and moved everyone from Mathura there, so for many years Mathura remained unoccupied.

Like you mentioned, after the Yadava massacre, Vajra as the only remaining heir of the Yadavas becomes King of Mathura and brings the remaining people back there after Dwaraka drowns in the ocean.

Pro, I just got an idea. Can you somehow make a siggy of Dwaraka drowning and Krishna niryanaanam. 😲

Originally posted by: RamKiSeeta

Pro, I just got an idea. Can you somehow make a siggy of Dwaraka drowning and Krishna niryanaanam. 😲

I'm not sure about it, you know how I feel about that part of MB. 😭

Originally posted by: proteeti

I'm not sure about it, you know how I feel about that part of MB. 😭

Aww yeah, but it'll be a challenge! How about I make one too, and we can share? 😉

Originally posted by: proteeti

As far as I remember Mathura and Dwarika both were Yadava territories and both were ruled by Ugrasena. After the killing of Satyabhama's father Satrajit, Krishna sends Akroora back to Mathura to serve as a regent representing Ugrasena.

The line of succession was:

Ugrasena->Vasudeva->Balarama->Krishna->Pradyumna->Anirudhha->Vajra.

In the Prabhasa Yadava massacre (Mausala Parva), Balarama to Anirudhha were killed/left their bodies, and Vasudeva committed suicide when he came to know this.

So after Ugrasena, poora line bypass karke Vajra becomes the king of Mathura (only M, as Dwarika is engulfed in the great tsunami).

From what I know, after Krishna abandoned Mathura for Dwarka, the city would have been abandoned, and since it was a vacuum and Panchala was right next door, it's likely that it came under Drupad's rule. After the Kurukshetra war, it would probably have passed on to Pandava hands, who would have left it alone, since Krishna and his clan was happily content in Dwarka. Akrura very much lived in Dwarka: he was killed at the end of the fratricide when Krishna was trying to send him back to the city to gather the survivors: at his death, Krishna sent Daruka to Arjun, while himself asking Vasudev to hold the fort until Arjun came. Vasudev didn't commit suicide: he died the day after Arjun arrived from shock

After the Yadava fratricide and Dwarka sinking, Arjun decided to bring them back to their original home. Also, the Vrishni-Andhaka coalition, which was always centrifugal and held together only by Krishna, was broken up. Kritavarma's son Bali was made the ruler of the Andhakas, while Satyaki's son Asanga was made the ruler of the Vrishnis. Vajra was crowned the ruler of Mathura at Indraprastha, and Subhadra was made the caretaker of both Parikshit and Vajra before the Pandavas left their kingdom forever.

Originally posted by: proteeti

I'm not sure about it, you know how I feel about that part of MB. 😭

The only serial that I've ever seen cover both the Mausala Parva and Swargarohan yatra was Suryaputra Karna on Sony. Their depictions were a joke, but maybe one could use images of that.

^^ Do you have the video from that show? The idea of using some scenes from there is not bad.

Re: yadava kings. Surasena was Vasudeva's father. Ugrasena was his uncle. Still after Kamsa was killed, all his brothers were also killed by Balram which left Surasena as next in line, followed by Vasudeva, then Balram. But Balram actually called the shots in Dwaraka.

Krishna was not part of line of succession.

1. After Balram, it would've passed to his sons.

2. Krishna declared he didn't want it. http://mahabharata-resources.org/harivamsa/vishnuparva/hv_2_032.html

Vajra got rulership only because no one was left

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

From what I know, after Krishna abandoned Mathura for Dwarka, the city would have been abandoned, and since it was a vacuum and Panchala was right next door, it's likely that it came under Drupad's rule. After the Kurukshetra war, it would probably have passed on to Pandava hands, who would have left it alone, since Krishna and his clan was happily content in Dwarka. Akrura very much lived in Dwarka: he was killed at the end of the fratricide when Krishna was trying to send him back to the city to gather the survivors: at his death, Krishna sent Daruka to Arjun, while himself asking Vasudev to hold the fort until Arjun came. Vasudev didn't commit suicide: he died the day after Arjun arrived from shock

After the Yadava fratricide and Dwarka sinking, Arjun decided to bring them back to their original home. Also, the Vrishni-Andhaka coalition, which was always centrifugal and held together only by Krishna, was broken up. Kritavarma's son Bali was made the ruler of the Andhakas, while Satyaki's son Asanga was made the ruler of the Vrishnis. Vajra was crowned the ruler of Mathura at Indraprastha, and Subhadra was made the caretaker of both Parikshit and Vajra before the Pandavas left their kingdom forever.

Thanks for filling the blanks. I wasn't completely sure of it too, I was just reiterating from memory. Can you sometime make a post detailing this part, like a complete guide to the Mausala and Swargarohana Parvas? It would be great to have the references close at hand. 😳