Krishna's Flute in MB

I wondered how often Krishna's flute, life in Vrindavan etc are mentioned off-hand in MB?

I remember Shishupal going on about it a bit, but can anyone help me locate some instances where they talk about Krishna's life before Mathura?

I know Nanda-Yashoda were acknowledged in some places but did someone/Krishna ever go into any detail in the main MB text?

In Harivaṃśa, both Saṃkarṣaṇa and Kṛṣṇa are described as gopa-veṇu-pravādakau - players of the cowherd's flute. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any place in Mahābhārata (Harivaṃśa included) where the flute is mentioned as a distinctive feature of Kṛṣṇa. The peacock feather is mentioned once as kaṇṭha-sūtr'āvalambinā - drooping from his neck-string, not tucked into his hair or crown. Peacock-feather ornaments are used by cowherds in general for themselves and their cows, and by the Goddess Kauśikī (Yaśodā's daughter, incarnation of Viṣṇu's helper Nidrā).

I can think of only two places in Mahābhārata, outside Harivaṃśa, where Kṛṣṇa's childhood adventures are mentioned. One is Śiśupāla saying "so what, he destroyed an inanimate cart, the female Pūtanā etc." in rebuttal to Bhīṣma. Interestingly, Bhīṣma's narration of Kṛṣṇa's childhood and adult life (mostly mirroring the Harivaṃśa text) is not included in the critical text of Sabhāparvan, and so this part of Śiśupāla's speech may not belong to an old tradition. The other place is in Udyogaparvan, on the subject of enemies who have tried to capture Kṛṣṇa and failed.

Yaśodā and Nanda-gopa (never simply "Nanda" in Harivaṃśa) are mentioned nowhere else in Mahābhārata outside Harivaṃśa, as far as I know.

The long narration of Kṛṣṇa's childhood adventures in Harivaṃśa is very different in style from the speeches and tell-me-a-story dialogues that pervade Mahābhārata. It looks like the writing of a single author with a clear narrative focus and very few deletions, rearrangements, or insertions by later authors. Thus, this section is likely more recently composed than other parts of the text that are damaged and obscure. It is interesting to contrast its details with the incidents from Kṛṣṇa's childhood that Nārada narrates in Harivaṃśa chapter 97.

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

In Harivamsa, both Samkarsana and Krsna are described as gopa-venu-pravadakau - players of the cowherd's flute. As far as I'm aware, there isn't any place in Mahabharata (Harivamsa included) where the flute is mentioned as a distinctive feature of Krsna. The peacock feather is mentioned once as kantha-sutr'avalambina - drooping from his neck-string, not tucked into his hair or crown. Peacock-feather ornaments are used by cowherds in general for themselves and their cows, and by the Goddess Kausiki (Yasoda's daughter, incarnation of Visnu's helper Nidra).

So basically, 90% of Krishna's cowherd iconography comes from Srimad Bhagvatham and that side of the scriptures, right? 

Just for a count though, how many versions of daughters does Yashoda have in total? 😆

I can think of only two places in Mahabharata, outside Harivamsa, where Krsna's childhood adventures are mentioned. One is Sisupala saying "so what, he destroyed an inanimate cart, the female Putana etc." in rebuttal to Bhisma. Interestingly, Bhisma's narration of Krsna's childhood and adult life (mostly mirroring the Harivamsa text) is not included in the critical text of Sabhaparvan, and so this part of Sisupala's speech may not belong to an old tradition. The other place is in Udyogaparvan, on the subject of enemies who have tried to capture Krsna and failed.

I've read some scholars say the whole backstory of Krishna was added later to bring a more humane and down-to-earth picture of the great statesman. You also mention that Harivamsa's version might have been a later addition. Do you think the entire idea of Krishna-the-cowherd came about later or was there at least a hint of this image in MB or other scriptures closer in time to the majority of MB?

Yasoda and Nanda-gopa (never simply "Nanda" in Harivamsa) are mentioned nowhere else in Mahabharata outside Harivamsa, as far as I know.

The long narration of Krsna's childhood adventures in Harivamsa is very different in style from the speeches and tell-me-a-story dialogues that pervade Mahabharata. It looks like the writing of a single author with a clear narrative focus and very few deletions, rearrangements, or insertions by later authors. Thus, this section is likely more recently composed than other parts of the text that are damaged and obscure. It is interesting to contrast its details with the incidents from Krsna's childhood that Narada narrates in Harivamsa chapter 97.

I haven't read Harivamsa as a whole yet, it seems very fact-focused as opposed to a more relaxed pace of MB (as you also mentioned). Do you happen to have a link to a PDF? 🤪

Thanks for compiling this, your posts are always an interesting read! 

Also, for some reason now I started imagining a scenario where Krishna challenges Balram to go a whole day without choosing violence.

Then like always, a bunch of demons show up and Balram is stuck aggressively playing the flute at a bunch of, albeit very confused, demons while Krishna ROFLs around.

Also, for the same reason, I cannot get that image out of my head now. 🤣

Originally posted by: metacrisis

So basically, 90% of Krishna's cowherd iconography comes from Srimad Bhagvatham and that side of the scriptures, right? 

Just for a count though, how many versions of daughters does Yashoda have in total? 

I've read some scholars say the whole backstory of Krishna was added later to bring a more humane and down-to-earth picture of the great statesman. You also mention that Harivamsa's version might have been a later addition. Do you think the entire idea of Krishna-the-cowherd came about later or was there at least a hint of this image in MB or other scriptures closer in time to the majority of MB?

I haven't read Harivamsa as a whole yet, it seems very fact-focused as opposed to a more relaxed pace of MB (as you also mentioned). Do you happen to have a link to a PDF? 

Thanks for compiling this, your posts are always an interesting read! 

I am not qualified to say where the iconography appears first: in paintings, sculptures, oral tradition, or written texts in vernacular or classical languages.

Yaśodā's daughter is mentioned at three places in Harivaṃśa (critical edition): first she is an incarnation of Nidrā and deified as Kauśikī; then Kaṃsa describes her worship as Vindhyavāsinī; then when Kṛṣṇa returns from Prāgjyotiṣa, we are informed that "the girl for whose sake Kṛṣṇa killed Kaṃsa" grew up in the Vṛṣṇi family and she is Ekānaṃśā, holding hands with her two brothers.

The Tamiḻ poem Cilappadhikāram portrays the worship of Ǒṉṟaṉpakuti (= Ekānaṃśā), referring to her as Piṉṉai (= Anujā) holding the hands of Māyavaṉ (= Kṛṣṇa) and Tammuṉōṉ (= his elder brother). Here, she seems to be Kṛṣṇa's lover although her name suggests that she is his sister.

Piṉṉai evolved into the character of Nīlā, identified as the daughter of Yaśodā's brother Kumbhaka. The myth of Kṛṣṇa subduing seven bulls moved from the Ǒṉṟaṉpakuti dance into Nīlā's marriage in manuscripts of Harivaṃśa, and then Bhāgavata-purāṇa transferred it to Kṛṣṇa's marriage to Satyā Nāgnajitī. Even later, Brahma-kāṇḍa of Garuḍa-purāṇa tries to merge these three characters through the story that Kṛṣṇa granted a girl's wish: "When you take birth as Kṛṣṇa, I want to be with you from the very first day, and I want to marry you before anyone else." Although the present text of the story only tells us that miraculously Nīlā became one with Nāgnajitī, and doesn't tell us anything about Yaśodā's daughter, the allusion to a girl being with Kṛṣṇa from the first day of his life can only refer to Yaśodā's daughter being born on the same night.

The tithi was navamī by the time Yaśodā's daughter was born. In some Jaina versions, Kaṃsa disfigures her nose and so she is called Ekanāsā (single-nostril). The names Ekanāsā and Navamikā belong to two of the Dikkumārī deities protecting the West in Jaina geography. In some Jaina versions, Satyabhāmā is Kaṃsa's sister and a contest for her marriage is the pretext that brings Kṛṣṇa from vraja to Mathurā, but I haven't found a story in which Kṛṣṇa kills Kaṃsa for the sake of Ekānaṃśā as alluded by Harivaṃśa.

In one of the Jātaka stories, Ghata-paṇḍita-Jātaka, ten girls born to a slave-woman named Nandagopā are exchanged for ten boys born to her royal mistress Devagabbhā, and it is Devagabbhā's own firstborn daughter, Añjanadevī, who may correspond to Ekānaṃśā. Her brothers realize that they forgot to give her a share of their kingdom (the word "anaṃśā" does not appear in the story) and she is the sole survivor (ekā) after her brothers Vāsudeva, Baladeva, and the rest are killed.

Kṛṣṇa's people are identified as Gopa and Nārāyaṇa when they fight in the Mahābhārata War alongside Saṃśaptakas (from Trigarta) and Yavanas. Subhadrā dresses as a gopālikā to enter her marital home. Harivaṃśa introduces Vasudeva as a gopa. So, it's not that Kṛṣṇa went from statesman to cowherd; rather, cows were the wealth that made his family equal to other royals, and the distinction between Mathurā and vraja has gradually widened as the story is retold. (Not only figuratively but literally! In Harivaṃśa, Mathurā and vraja appear to be on the same side of Yamunā; in Bhāgavata-purāṇa, Vasudeva has to cross the river.) The value of cattle for royalty is seen when Duryodhana goes for ghoṣayātrā, when Suśarman and Duryodhana conspire for gograhaṇa (seizure of Virāṭa's cattle), when Kṛṣṇa seizes Bāṇa's cattle for Satyabhāmā, and in royal characters' names like Govāsana and Damaghoṣa.

An English translation of Harivaṃśa (critical edition) by Simon Brodbeck was published just a few years ago.

Well I think there was a mention when Draupadi and all were discussing about Krishna's life, after all the kids came back. 

I think you are well informed but maybe instead of writing the exact and lengthy thing you can try shortening the story more and then post. It'll attract more readers😊

Originally posted by: BrhannadaArmour

I am not qualified to say where the iconography appears first: in paintings, sculptures, oral tradition, or written texts in vernacular or classical languages.

Yasoda's daughter is mentioned at three places in Harivamsa (critical edition): first she is an incarnation of Nidra and deified as Kausiki; then Kamsa describes her worship as Vindhyavasini; then when Krsna returns from Pragjyotisa, we are informed that "the girl for whose sake Krsna killed Kamsa" grew up in the Vrsni family and she is Ekanamsa, holding hands with her two brothers.

This route of the story would've definitely been fascinating to read! In this version, Krishna probably wouldn't drift away from Nand-Yashoda as seen in most popular retellings (although, I guess some scriptures do make them reunite later-ish?).

The Tamil poem Cilappadhikaram portrays the worship of Onranpakuti (= Ekanamsa), referring to her as Pinnai (= Anuja) holding the hands of Mayavan (= Krsna) and Tammunon (= his elder brother). Here, she seems to be Krsna's lover although her name suggests that she is his sister.

This hand-holding iconography has a nice callback value to Puri-Jagannath idols. Also, I read that some traditions identify (Nap)Pinnai with Radha, so maybe that might be a contributing factor to the lover/sister confusion?

Here, I am just going on Pinnai/Nappinnai name similarity, I don't actually know Tamil well enough to decide if this counts. 😆

Pinnai evolved into the character of Nila, identified as the daughter of Yasoda's brother Kumbhaka. The myth of Krsna subduing seven bulls moved from the Onranpakuti dance into Nila's marriage in manuscripts of Harivamsa, and then Bhagavata-purana transferred it to Krsna's marriage to Satya Nagnajiti. Even later, Brahma-kanda of Garuda-purana tries to merge these three characters through the story that Krsna granted a girl's wish: "When you take birth as Krsna, I want to be with you from the very first day, and I want to marry you before anyone else." Although the present text of the story only tells us that miraculously Nila became one with Nagnajiti, and doesn't tell us anything about Yasoda's daughter, the allusion to a girl being with Krsna from the first day of his life can only refer to Yasoda's daughter being born on the same night.

See again Yashoda's brother appears in the story, as paralleled by the Ayan Ghosh/Radha dynamic that develops later in folklore. Also, the "be together from the first day" sounds like it's along the same lines as the story of Radha being born unable to see and only opening her eyes once Krishna gets close.

I find it incredible how so many of the mythological stories are interdependent. I also feel when we are reading translations/commentaries we tend to miss out on so many linguistic twists and turns, which tend to be oversimplified when read from someone else's perspective other than the original writer.

The tithi was navami by the time Yasoda's daughter was born. In some Jaina versions, Kamsa disfigures her nose and so she is called Ekanasa (single-nostril). The names Ekanasa and Navamika belong to two of the Dikkumari deities protecting the West in Jaina geography. In some Jaina versions, Satyabhama is Kamsa's sister and a contest for her marriage is the pretext that brings Krsna from vraja to Mathura, but I haven't found a story in which Krsna kills Kamsa for the sake of Ekanamsa as alluded by Harivamsa.

In Indian traditions also do we count tithi by midnight? 🥱

Kamsa just keeps getting worse with each new story I hear, the guy clearly needs to chill out a bit. 

However, in this version, Satyabhama would be his aunt right? I would say that's icky, but Krishna clearly has a history with aunties, throughout folklore. 😆

In one of the Jataka stories, Ghata-pandita-Jataka, ten girls born to a slave-woman named Nandagopa are exchanged for ten boys born to her royal mistress Devagabbha, and it is Devagabbha's own firstborn daughter, Anjanadevi, who may correspond to Ekanamsa. Her brothers realize that they forgot to give her a share of their kingdom (the word "anamsa" does not appear in the story) and she is the sole survivor (eka) after her brothers Vasudeva, Baladeva, and the rest are killed.

Oof that's rough! 

Krsna's people are identified as Gopa and Narayana when they fight in the Mahabharata War alongside Samsaptakas (from Trigarta) and Yavanas. Subhadra dresses as a gopalika to enter her marital home. Harivamsa introduces Vasudeva as a gopa. So, it's not that Krsna went from statesman to cowherd; rather, cows were the wealth that made his family equal to other royals, and the distinction between Mathura and vraja has gradually widened as the story is retold. (Not only figuratively but literally! In Harivamsa, Mathura and vraja appear to be on the same side of Yamuna; in Bhagavata-purana, Vasudeva has to cross the river.) The value of cattle for royalty is seen when Duryodhana goes for ghosayatra, when Susarman and Duryodhana conspire for gograhana (seizure of Virata's cattle), when Krsna seizes Bana's cattle for Satyabhama, and in royal characters' names like Govasana and Damaghosa.

That actually makes a lot of sense. It's interesting to see how they actually went the opposite way from what I was thinking.

An English translation of Harivamsa (critical edition) by Simon Brodbeck was published just a few years ago.

Thanks so much, I'll try to find a copy. 

Originally posted by: sxursaep

Well I think there was a mention when Draupadi and all were discussing about Krishna's life, after all the kids came back. 

Really, that happened in the book also? I must have missed it. I thought that was all StarB? 🤓

Originally posted by: metacrisis

Really, that happened in the book also? I must have missed it. I thought that was all StarB? 🤓

I'm not a mythological books reader but considering what they showed in SP's version, there's a mention😆