Bhishma and Karna actual conversation

Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#1
Bhishma and Karna are two of my fav character's.All through out the epic they are at each other's throat at the end when Bhishma is lying on the bed of arrows they reconcile and the truth of their relationship comes out.Which is the reason why this one of my fav conversation .This is what actually happens between them

1)Karna is very grieved after finding out about Bhishma's death and goes to him.Falls down at his feet and bheeshma hugs him like a son


Hearing of Bhishma's slaughter that bull among men, viz., Radha's son (Karna), partially inspired with fear quickly came there. He beheld that illustrious hero lying on his bed of reeds. Then Vrisha (Karna) endued with great glory, with voice choked in tears, approaching that hero lying with eyes closed, fell at his feet. And he said,--O chief of the Kurus, I am Radha's son, who while before thy eyes, was everywhere looked upon by thee with hate!--Hearing these words, the aged chief of the Kurus,the son of Ganga, whose eyes were covered with film slowly raising his eyelids, and causing the guards to be removed, and seeing the place deserted by all, embraced Karna with one arm, like a sire embracing his son, and said these words with great affection


2)The Bhiisham tells him that he knows karna's true identity and doesn't hate him.The only reason why he used use harsh words against karna is because karna used to speak ill of pandavas


Come, come! Thou art an opponent of mine who always challengest comparison with me! If thou hadst not come to me, without doubt, it would not have been well with thee! Thou art Kunti's son, not Radha's! Nor is Adhiratha thy father! O thou of mighty arms, I heard all this about thee from Narada as also from Krishna-Dwaipayana! Without doubt, all this is true! I tell thee truly, O son, that I bear thee no malice! It was only for abating thy energy that I used to say such harsh words to thee! O thou of excellent vows without any reason thou speakest ill of all the Pandavas! Sinfully didst thou come into the world. It is for this that thy heart hath been such. Through pride, and owning also to thy companionship with the low, thy heart hateth even persons of merit! It is for this that I spoke such harsh words about thee in the Kuru camp!


3)Then he tells karna that he knows karna is a powerful warrior ,respects Brahmins and is a daanveer.And also in archery he considers karna equal to arjuna or even krishna ji.The he list's karna's victories


I know thy prowess in battle, which can with difficulty be borne on earth by foes! I know also thy regard for Brahmanas. thy courage, and thy great attachment to alms-giving! O thou that resemblest a very god, amongst men there is none like thee! For fear of intestine dissensions I always spoke harsh words about thee. In bowmanship, in aiming weapon, in lightness of hand and in strength of weapons, thou art equal to Phalguni himself, or the high-souled Krishna! O Karna, proceeding to the city of Kasi, alone with thy bow, thou hadst crushed the kings in battle for procuring a bride for the Kuru king! The mighty and invincible king Jarasandha also, ever boastful of his prowess in battle, could not become thy match in fight! Thou art devoted to Brahmanas; thou always fightest fairly! In energy and strength, thou art equal to a child of the celestials and certainly much superior to men. The wrath I cherished against thee is gone. Destiny is incapable of being avoided by exertion


4)Then Bhishma asks karna to join pandavas and end this war as pandavas are his brother's.Karna refuses saying he wont leave dury for any one.Also accepts it is difficult to defeat arjuna but he has resolved to fight him and kill him.He further goes on to say that he is not able to completely give up his enmity with panadavs hence keeping his duty first he will fight them.Then apologizes to Bhishma for his earlier behavior


O slayer of foes, the heroic sons of Pandu are thy uterine brothers! If thou wishest to do what is agreeable to me, unite with them, O thou of mighty arms! O son of Surya, let these hostilities end with me! Let all the kings of Earth be to-day freed from danger!--

"'Karna said I know this, O thou of mighty arms! All this without doubt, is (as thou sayest)! As thou tellest me, O, Bhishma, I am Kunti's son, and not the son of a Suta! I was, however, abandoned by Kunti, and I have been reared by a Suta. Having (so long) enjoyed the wealth of Duryodhana, I dare not falsify it now. Like Vasudeva's son who is firmly resolved for the sake of the Pandavas, I also, O thou that makest profuse presents to Brahmanas, am prepared to cast away my possessions, my body itself, my children, and my wife, for Duryodhana's sake! Death from disease, O thou of Kuru's race, doth not become a Kshatriya! Relying upon Suyodhana I have always offended the Pandavas! This affairs is destined to take its course. It is incapable of being prevented. Who was there that would venture to overcome Destiny by exertion? Various omens indicating the destruction of the Earth. O grandsire, were noticed by theeand declared in the assembly. It is well known to me that the son of Pandu, and Vasudeva, are incapable of being conquered by other men. Even with them we venture to fight! I will vanquish the son of Pandu in battle! Even this is my firm resolve! I am not capable, of casting off this fierce animosity (that I cherish against the Pandavas)! With a cheerful heart, and keeping the duties of my order before my eye, I will contend against Dhananjaya. Firmly resolved that I am on battle, grant me thy permission, O hero! I will fight. Even this is my wish. It behoveth thee to forgive me also any harsh words that I may have at any time uttered against thee or any act that I may have done against thee from anger or inconsiderateness!--"


5)Then Bhishma forgives karna and gives him permission to fight


"'Bhishma said,--If, indeed, thou art unable to cast off this fierce animosity, I permit thee, O Karna! Fight, moved by the desire of heaven! Without anger and without vindictiveness, serve thou the king according to thy power and according to thy courage and observant of the conduct of the righteous! Have then my permission, O Karna! Obtain thou that which thou seekest! Through Dhananjaya thou wilt obtain all those regions (hereafter) which are capable of being had by fulfilling the duties of a Kshatriya! Freed from pride, and relying on thy (own) might and energy, engage in battle, since a Kshatriya cannot have a (source of) greater happiness than a righteous battle. For a long while I made great efforts for bringing about peace! But I succeeded not, O Karna, in the task! Truly do I say this unto thee!

Then in the morning karna again goes to Bhishma to seek blessings


6)He comes to take pitamah'a blessings again and says that Bhishma was the best of kuru warriors and he requires his blessings as the war will be terrible today


'I am Karna! Blessed be thou! Speak to me, O Bharata, in sacred and auspicious words, and look at me, opening thy eyes. No man certainly enjoyeth in this world the fruits of his pious deeds, since thou, reverend in years and devoted to virtue, liest slain on the ground. O thou that art the foremost one amongst the Kurus, I do not see that there is any one else among them, who is competent (like thee) in filling the treasury, in counsels, in the matter of disposing the troops in battle array, and in the use of weapons, Alas, he that was endued with a righteous understanding, he that always protected the Kurus from every danger, alas, he, having slain numberless warriors, proceedeth to the region of the Pitris. From this day, O chief of the Bharatas, the Pandavas, excited with wrath, will slaughter the Kurus like tigers slaying deer. Today the Kauravas, acquainted with the force of Gandiva's twang, will regard Savyasachin, like the Asuras regarding the wielder of the thunder-bolt, with terror. Today the noise, resembling that of heaven's thunder, of the arrows shot from Gandiva, will inspire the Kurus and other kings with great terror. Today, O hero, like a raging conflagration of fierce flames consuming a forest, the shafts of Kiritin will consume the Dhartarashtras. In those parts of the forest through which fire and wind march together, they burn all plants and creepers and trees. Without doubt, Partha is even like a surging fire, and, without doubt, O tiger among men, Krishna is like the wind. Hearing the blare of Panchajanya and the twang of Gandiva all the Kaurava troops, O Bharata, will be filled with fear. O hero, without thee, the kings will never be able to bear the rattle of the ape-bannered car belonging to that grinder of foes, when he will advance (upon them). Who amongst the kings, save thyself, is competent to battle with that Arjuna whose feats, as described by the wise, are all superhuman? Superhuman was the battle that he fought with the high-souled (Mahadeva) of three eyes. From him he obtained a boon that is unattainable by persons of unsanctified souls. Delighted in battle, that sonof Pandu is protected by Madhava. Who is there that is competent to vanquish him who could not be vanquished by thee before, although thou, endued with great energy, hadst vanquished Rama himself in battle, that fierce destroyer of the Kshatriya race, worshipped, besides, by the gods and the Danavas? Incapable of putting up with that son of Pandu, that foremost of heroes in battle, even I, with thy permission, am competent to slay, with the force of my weapons, that brave and fierce warrior who resembleth a snake of virulent poison and who slayeth his foes with his glances alone


7)Then Bhishma blesses him and asks him to go and fight for duryodhan and win the war for him.To protect the kauravas like he would protect his own brother's.He further lists other victories of karna and says that just like duryodhan even karna is his grandson.And he is as much karna's grandfather as he is dury's


"Sanjaya said, 'Unto him who was talking thus, the aged Kuru grandsire with a cheerful heart, said these words adapted to both time and place: 'Like the ocean unto rivers, like the Sun unto all luminous bodies, like the righteous unto Truth, like a fertile soil unto seeds, like the clouds unto all creatures, be thou the refuge of thy relatives and friends! Like the celestials upon him of a thousand eyes, let thy kinsmen depend on thee. Be thou the humiliator of thy foes, and the enhancer of the joys of thy friends. Be thou unto the Kauravas as Vishnu unto the dwellers of heaven. Desirous of doing what was agreeable to Dhritarashtra's son, thou didst with the might and prowess of own arms, O Karna, vanquish the Kamvojas having proceeded to Rajpura. Many kings, amongst whom Nagnajit was the foremost, while staying in Girivraja, as also the Amvashthas, the Videhas, and the Gandharvas, were all vanquished by thee. The Kiratas, fierce in battle, dwelling in the fastness of Himavat, were formerly, O Karna, made by thee to own Duryodhana's sway. And so also, the Utpalas, the Mekalas, the Paundras, the Kalingas, the Andhras, the Nishadas, the Trigartas, and the Valhikas, were all vanquished by thee, O Karna, in battle. In many other countries, O Karna, impelled by the desire of doing good to Duryodhana, thou didst, O hero, vanquish many races and kings of great energy. Like Duryodhana, O child, with his kinsmen, and relatives, and friends, be thou also the refuge of all the Kauravas. In auspicious words I command thee, go and fight with the enemy. Lead the Kurus in battle, and give victory unto Duryodhana. Thou art to us our grandson even as Duryodhana is. According to the ordinance, all of us also are as much thine as Duryodhana's! The wise, O foremost of men, say that the companionship of the righteous with the righteous is a superior relationship to thatborn of the same womb. Without falsifying, therefore, thy relationship with Kurus, protect thou the Kaurava host like Duryodhana, regarding it as thy own.


Then karna salutes him and leave





Edited by Sabhayata - 9 years ago

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riti4u thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#2
Thank you so much Sabhyata for sharing this... You are my source for citations...
I am bookmarking for now...will come later to update
TheWatcher thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#3
This conversation is the answer to all claims of Bhishma and Karna insulting each other.

It was Bhishma always who insulted Karna first ( though he did it with a purpose ) and Karna was the one who replied him back by insulting him, no man in those days could bear his insult without speaking up. ( No hard feelings for Bhishma since he always wanted good for Karna )

Some people say that Karna 'arrogantly' opted out of the war, but the truth is Bhishma insulted him to such a point that he opted out, This was Bhishma's plan all along - Insult Karna to a limit where he opts out of the war.

This line - "..I tell thee truly, O son, that I bear thee no malice! It was only for abating thy energy that I used to say such harsh words to thee!.."

So, lets add Bhishma to the list of people who tried to weaken Karna ( mentally).

Edited by TheWatcher - 9 years ago
amritat thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#4
Thanks Sabhayata for this citation.
 
Honestly, I don't know, what to make of Karna's characterisation. Undoubtedly, he is the most complicated character, after Lord Krishna.
On one hand, there are moments, when he's supporting Duryodhan's misdeeds and giving him ideas, and on the other hand, he's repenting his actions and words, to Lord Krishna and Bhishm.
His conversation with Bhishma and Lord Krishna are really beautiful.
But this actually complicates the whole situation, and sometimes, I find it really difficult, to understand, what Karna actually had in his heart and mind.
 
This is the reason y I have mixed feelings for Karna. Not a huge fan of this character anymore, but cannot overlook his conversations with Bhishma and Lord Krishna, and some of his actions like refusing throne, peeling off Kavach and Kundal from his body, either.
 
I guess, Karna is the biggest proof of how wrong company can bring out the worst in even the greatest person. But that is strictly, my interpretation.
 
And I don't agree with the justification of Karna insulting Bhishm, only to retaliate the latter's insults.
Coz, Bhishm was not of Karna's age. Bhishm was much, much older to Karna, actually his grandfather's or probably great-grandfather's age(since Bhishm was a lot older than Vichitravirya).They were practically generations apart. And Bhishm was not only above in age, but also in valour and honour. Retaliating and insulting someone like Bhishm...well I don't agree.
Then again, these things are very complicated and difficult to understand, unless, we are in the same situation ourselves. 
 But that is again, strictly, MY OPINION. Many people may disagree, which is alright.
 
But this conversation is satisfying, as the 2 men, finally reconcile. Karna regrets his words, and Bhishm accepts him as his grandson.
Edited by amritat - 9 years ago
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#5

Originally posted by: TheWatcher



Some people say that Karna 'arrogantly' opted out of the war, but the truth is Bhishma insulted him to such a point that he opted out, This was Bhishma's plan all along - Insult Karna to a limit where he opts out of the war.



i agree because before the war Bhishma doesn't include karna in the list of ati maharathi's but later when karna comes to him on bed of arrows Bhishma clearly states that he thinks karna is an awesome warrior may be even at par with krishna ji

this makes it clear that whatever Bhishma said before the war to karna about his warrior skills was on purpose so that he doesn't fight the war .Now why Bhishma didnt want karna to fight the war is not clear.I personally think its because he didn't want two brother's to fight
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#6

Originally posted by: TheWatcher



So, lets add Bhishma to the list of people who tried to weaken Karna ( mentally).


and to the list of people who asked karna to join panadvas

and to the list of people who though karna was as good an archer as arjuna
Sabhayata thumbnail
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Posted: 9 years ago
#7

Originally posted by: amritat

Thanks Sabhayata for this citation.

 
Honestly, I don't know, what to make of Karna's characterisation. Undoubtedly, he is the most complicated character, after Lord Krishna.
On one hand, there are moments, when he's supporting Duryodhan's misdeeds and giving him ideas, and on the other hand, he's repenting his actions and words, to Lord Krishna and Bhishm.
His conversation with Bhishma and Lord Krishna are really beautiful.
But this actually complicates the whole situation, and sometimes, I find it really difficult, to understand, what Karna actually had in his heart and mind.
 
This is the reason y I have mixed feelings for Karna. Not a huge fan of this character anymore, but cannot overlook his conversations with Bhishma and Lord Krishna, and some of his actions like refusing throne, peeling off Kavach and Kundal from his body, either.
 
I guess, Karna is the biggest proof of how wrong company can bring out the worst in even the greatest person. But that is strictly, my interpretation.
 


i agree he is perhaps the most complicated character in the epic.I am a huge karna fan but still in the epic he does things that even makes me think how i can like him but then he does other wonderful things that make me fall in love with him at the end later overpowers the former feeling

but i get what you are trying to say

once can never guess what karna will do next some thing good or bad ,right or wrong.That is what makes his character extremely interesting to me