Pt Shiv Kumar Sharma

Interview by Michael Robinson  with Pt Shiv Kumar Sharma..relly liked what he explained about Raagas.  There were two mild earthquakes the hour before santoor genius Shivkumar Sharma, a towering figure in Indian classical music, was to perform at Occidental College's beautiful multi-faith Herrick Chapel in Los Angeles. Mild that is to people accustomed to earthquakes. During the tuning of his instrument just before the concert I realized that we were about to hear Rag Bhupali, an ancient and revered evening raga, the name of which is derived from the words "land" and "protector of the land." Sitting on the floor in the front row less than fifteen feet from Panditji, a powerful and mystical presence draped in saffron-hued silk, and wearing a ring with a luminous aquamarine stone you imagine may come from his native land of Jammu, he brought to mind a benevolent maharaja beloved by his people. It was both a transcendental and intellectually thrilling sensation to breath with him and follow his every phrase, from the shining and vocal-like tracings of the alap to the swift "flying like a bird" passages of the concluding gat articulated with super-human precision. The resplendent tabla bols and melodic rhythms of Ustad Shafaat Ahmed Khan were equally delightful, and Rahul Sharma, also on santoor, was prepared for the challenge of playing with these great masters, enhancing the performance with his own blend of sensitivity and verve. Fortunately, there were no more quakes that evening! (I am indebted to Harihar Rao, Lal Savla and, of course, Shivkumar Sharma, for the opportunity to conduct this interview which took place on the afternoon of the concert.)

MR: Shivkumarji, just recently I came across a very interesting passage in a book that was published in the 1800's.

SS: I see.

MR: And it has something pertaining to the times that ragas are performed which I have never heard before. So I wanted to ask you if this is something you've heard of and agree with or perhaps have a different approach to. The passage says that "musicians declare that the times and seasons allotted to each"... ragas we are referring to... "are those at which the divinities are at leisure to attend at the place where their favorite"...it says here "tune is sung"...we could substitute raga for that..."and to inspire the performer with due warmth in his execution."

SS: You see this has been a tradition in our music, especially North Indian classical music. And to follow the time theory, we call it, and this is related with the sunrise to sunset, and from again the circle of sunset to sunrise. And the theory is, the whole idea is that the human body and mind reacts to changes in nature. This is a very Indian thought, that this human body is made up of five elements, that is earth, fire, water, air and space. And whatever happens with the nature, nature consists of all these elements and that reacts on our body and mind. For example, when we see a rising sun the kind of feelings that we experience while watching a rising sun, or before that when its getting...the colors are changing and the darkness is going away, the kind of feeling that it evokes in you is totally different from the moonlight or at noontime.

MR: Are these feelings more intense in the country than in the city?

SS: It depends on the environment also because earlier music was not performed in the auditoriums. In the Indian classical music traditions music started from Vedic age more than three-thousand years ago, more than that, and it was outdoor, and especially music was used as a source of meditation, not as an entertainment. MR: For both the performer and the listener. SS: Yes. It became a performing art later on, but originally it was very spiritual. It was used for meditation. It was used for taking a person inward. To calm down, to relax. To be centered at one focal point. So that was the origin of this music. It started with the singing of Vedic hymns and all that. So coming back to this time theory, this is an established fact, that in twenty-four hour cycle of day and night you go through different emotions. If it is warm and its different, if it is raining you will feel different, so what has been done in our music, musicologists combine such phrases of notes which go along with the time cycle. Which in answer, what is there in the nature, because the music was performed outdoors so you can FEEL the change.

MR: I see. Now recently I was listening to Rag Marwa...

SS: Uh huh...

MR: ...different performances, unfortunately I don't have your recording of that right now, I plan to get it, and I had the feeling that somehow the melodies of this rag had a feeling of falling, of something fading, and I thought, "Oh my God, could this possibly be the sunset?"

SS: Yes.

MR: Is that...

SS: Yes. And there are ragas of this type before sunset and after sunset. We call them twilight melodies. And there is a difference in morning twilight and evening twilight. When the sun is about to come its a different kind of feeling. When if it is gone, the day is over, its a different kind of feeling.

MR: So what you're saying here is that its something that's very close to the cycles of nature...

SS: Yes.

MR: ...but not specifically Gods as is implied here (the passage) where they're talking about "divinities"...

SS: Uh huh...

MR: ...or am I misinterpreting the passage?

SS: In that sense when we talk about divinity this music is connected. Music is connected with that but I'm...what I'm talking is... that is nature in this.

MR: Of course nature comes from god.

SS: Yes. Its connected, its interrelated.

MR: I see. One of my favorite recordings of yours is your recording of morning ragas, Gunkali, Basant Mukhari.

SS: Yes.

MR: Now one thing I noticed immediately with Gunkali is a very beautiful tanpura pattern. Is this something you composed yourself, is this something you learned, I've never heard this pattern before, maybe its my lack of experience in this rag.

SS: The rag Gunkali?

MR: It goes Ma, Pa, dha, Sa and back (down an octave) to Sa, a very beautiful...

SS: The way the tanpura is tuned. MR: Yes. A very beautiful, a very effective tanpura pattern for this raga. SS: Normally the tanpura is tuned in the tonic, three strings, two strings in the same octave and one played low. And the other string is tuned depending on the rag to the fifth note, fourth note or the seventh note. But I have experimented in this rag. Sometime if you tune the tanpura according to the most prominent phrase of that raga, so as soon as the tanpura is played you get into that mood of that rag.

MR: Yes. It's breathtaking. Its so appropriate. So this is your invention. Its fantastic, very effective. To talk in general terms about Gunkali and Basant Mukhari, my overall sensation as to the rasa (mood) for Gunkali is one of love either for god or for a human being and Basant Mukhari sounds to me like a journey or an adventure, like you're traveling somewhere. Would you like to say a few words about how you approach each of these rags or contrast them?

SS: Its a very interesting aspect of our music. Each...a particular rag could have different kind of emotions in different persons depending on their frame of mind at that particular moment when they are listening to that music, the place where they are listening to that music, the kind of concentration they are having at that time and the temperament of that person. I'll give you an example. Once I was playing in a radio station for the live broadcast. It was in Jammu, my native place, and there were two ladies who were sitting there in the studio, and I was playing Rag Gujri Todi, the rag has got pathos, the feel of the rag is pathos. And there were two different kinds of reactions from two different individuals at the same time. There was one lady, she was a musician, she herself was a singer, and she was sitting there because she was going to perform next. And there was another lady, she did not know music at all, but she had that FEEL for music. So the reaction was, the lady who was a performer, she was nodding her head and she was appreciating and she was gesticulating, "Oh, its wonderful," like that, of course silently, you cannot talk when this is live broadcast, and the other lady was not reacting in any way but there were tears in her eyes. So, the rag is same, melody is same. Two different individuals are reacting differently. And this is a very interesting aspect of our music. And I think this needs a very interesting research could be done on this aspect. What type of music appeals to what type of people. And what type of music one individual likes. From that you can find out what is the temperament of that person.

MR: So the raga reads the person.

SS: Yes. I think this...we can use that.

MR: Another favorite recording of mine is your recording of Rageshri with Zakir Hussain on his Moment Records.

SS: Yes. Its a live concert in Calcutta. MR: My overall sensation, if I can reduce it to one thing, to me this has a very strong feeling of the beauty of nature. I feel like I'm out in the mountains somewhere. Its just so pure and beautiful. Is there anything you can say about this raga? SS: I remember this is a live concert recording that I played in Calcutta a few years ago. Basically Rageshri is a late night raga. And it conveys a very happy...a romantic feeling, and when you talk about romance you can feel again about nature, about a human being, or being outdoors somewhere, and secondly the sound of santoor, the kind of sound santoor instrument produces, gives you a feel of flowing water. You are near some spring or some water flowing somewhere. MR: Perhaps that's what I'm referring to. SS: Yes. So that gives you that feeling.

MR: Its funny you mention that because someone had asked me to write some program notes for a composition I did based on a raga...

SS: Uh huh...

MR: ...and I was trying to think of an analogy, and I thought maybe, perhaps, and this may be a bad cliche, but of snow or the ice (in the mountains)...the alap...melting very slowly, forming a pool of water...

SS: Yes.

MR: ...and then you go into the jor and jhalla, the water forms a stream...

SS: Uh huh...

MR: ...and keeps on going faster (with waterfalls and rapids) as it goes down towards the ocean. So this concept of the santoor sounding like water, is this something your father taught you when he was teaching you music or is it something you realized later on? SS: No, while playing I realized. I played it like that when I play this instrument. MR: Fantastic. One thing that is very important, of course, in Indian music, and is one of the many great things about your music, the continuity, the way the rag develops, it keeps on developing until it ends...

SS: Um hum.

MR: Are there any...this is probably not an easy question to answer in a few words, but are there any principles that you could say in terms of...to maintain the continuity of the raga, the form of the raga...

SS: Um hum...

MR: ...it grows organically, it makes sense as a whole. Because sometimes you'll play a raga, in the USA I have not heard ragas played for more than an hour, but I imagine in India perhaps you'll play one for two hours.

SS: Yes.

MR: Have you played one for more than two hours?

SS: Yes.

MR: One raga?

SS: Yes.

MR: Is there anything you can say about how to...you achieve this continuity and the overall form?

SS: I think this is the basic character of our raga system. That is how we are trained. This music is not instant fast-speed music. We gradually create the images of the rag. I would compare it like a painting. An artist is sitting in front of you and creating a big...images of...a painting. And gradually it emerges. It takes time. And it takes time even if its a portrait, for example.

MR: Very interesting analogy.

SS: And it will gradually...it will emerge in front of you. Then you can make out of him, or you can see the features of the person. You can see the eyes, you can see the nose, you can see the lips...then the whole picture emerges in front of you. I think the improvisation of a rag also is like that. Its a musical painting that we are doing. And then a musician is trained in such a way in Indian classical music. The ability of the musician, his creativity is noticed by the way a musician will unfold a rag and gradually bring it out in different colors, and then in full bloom. So that means a lot of experience also.

MR: So first you suggest the melody before you reveal it in all its...

SS: Yes. And then first there is alap and there is no tempo, its totally free of tempo, and gradually there is a beat and tabla joins later on. And further there are other images coming, other colors coming, and then total picture comes across.

MR: I see. Another thought I had, because I heard some musicians say that they regard the raga as a living entity...

SS: Yes.

MR: ...as a spirit or a god or something... so it occurs to me sometimes that the alap is almost like you're conjuring the rag or waking it from sleep...

SS: Yes.

MR: ...and then when you enter the jor you have contacted the rag and it has come alive.

SS: Yes. That's beautiful.

MR: Would you ever think of it that way?

SS: Yes, yes. You know Art is...has got unlimited possibilities of imagination. And this is a creation which each individual person can add something to that and interpret in his own ways, ad infinitum.

MR: From what I've understood, Indian music has undergone some fairly dramatic or major changes in this century, and one of my favorite musicians, who I seem to appreciate more the more I learn is Pandit Ravi Shankar, and what I've understood is that some of the innovations he brought was to, for one thing, allow the tabla player greater prominence.

SS: Yes.

MR: Perhaps also in his playing, more of an emphasis on pure rhythm even though its a melodic instrument. Perhaps this is something he got from his guru because I heard a rare recording of his guru and it was very rhythmical playing on the sarod.

SS: Yes.

MR: And of course when you go into a faster tempo you have fantastic rhythm. In fact, I've never heard a sense of time which is so perfect to me when you are just playing by yourself without a tabla. The time, I've never heard it sound so perfect. Has Pandit Ravi Shankar been an influence on you? Or is this just something (a greater emphasis on rhythm) which is happening in the world. Of course he's older than you, a different generation.

SS: Let me tell you, Pandit Ravi Shankar ( Sharma's voice takes on a tone of awe and reverence here) is a musician who has totally given a new interpretation to the presentation of instrumental music. As you were saying, he was probably the first person, I would use this word, that...who had this generosity and courage to give so much importance to a tabla player. Because he is par excellence as far as the rhythmic patterns are concerned. As far as the intricacies of the different rhythmics cycles like nine beats, thirteen beats, fifteen beats. It was not earlier used mostly by the instrumentalists. And he did that, although there were vocalists doing that. And there were Drupad singers who were singing in different rhythmic cycles but not the instrumentalists. And Pandit Ravi Shankar did all that. Now as far as my thing is concerned, he is my senior, and I in fact, when I was very young, I played tabla with him.

MR: Oh you did! I didn't know that!

SS: (laughs) A few times. A few times I played tabla with him when he came for the first time to Jammu to perform for radio station. I was booked to accompany him on the tabla. I used to play tabla also.

MR: Right. I've heard that.

SS: Now why and how I have done this. My father was a vocalist. My father was not an instrumentalist. And he was a vocalist of Benares tradition. He was a disciple of Pandit Bade Ramdasji of Benares who was a very, very respected musician, a very well known musician. And he taught me something. And he used to sing in different, odd rhythmic cycles. Different type of compositions, taranas, which I learned from him and I tried to reproduce same things on the santoor. At the same time, when I was very young, of course, I was exposed to the music of Pandit Ravi Shankar, Ustad Ali Akbar Khan, Ustad Vilayat Khan, Ustad Allaudin Khansab, his guruji...

MR: Hearing them live.

SS: Yes. I heard all of these musicians and many more other musicians. So what a musician does is...now my instrument was totally different. I was not playing sitar and I was not playing sarod. So you could not incorporate something from these artists exactly on your instrument. I had to create the character of my instrument on my own. What is so different for this instrument, what goes well with this sound and the technique of santoor playing which is totally different. Santoor is the only instrument, a stringed instrument which is played with the mallets. There is no other instrument like that. And, of course, I heard all beautiful music from these great masters. And what inspired me from listening to these great masters, I in my own way, tried to give it my own interpretation, how it could be used on the santoor. And that is what I am doing. And I'm trying to balance. I don't give...sometimes there are musicians who have got more interest in the rhythmic intricacies. And there are others who are more interested in melodic form. I am trying to balance both. I'm of the opinion that the intricacy of the tal should not be at the cost of the melody. I would never sacrifice melody for the sake of intricacies of rhythm. That is my personal thinking. And at the same time, I would try to attempt whatever difficult thing is possible balancing both of these, balancing melody and rhythm. I might play an odd rhythmic cycle of nine beats, eleven beats, thirteen beats, fifteen beats, but I will use those syncopations of rhythm in melodic form, that melody is not lost. I'm trying to do that, it is very difficult.

MR: Well, you've succeeded, yes. One personal question: Do you perform Darbari or Jaijaivanti?

SS: I...no...

MR: I'm not aware of any recordings of these two rags.

SS: I have recently...I have no recording in Jaijaivanti and Darbari, but recently I played a concert where I played Darbari in Bombay. I don't know whether it will be released or not. It depends on future...

MR: Because when I personally take an interest in a particular raga I like to hear your interpretation because...

SS: OK, maybe sometime... (laughs)

MR: ...it is definitive and very beautiful.

SS: Sometime, thanks, it would be a good thing. I think a person can know hundreds of ragas theoretically, but to play them practically and not just to play, as you said, to create that image of the rag in front of you as a human being, that requires a lifetime's concentration, riaz, dedication, practice and thinking. And then you can be able to grasp certain command over few ragas. It takes a lot of patience.

MR: Thank you very much.

SS: Nice job.

gr8 interview Swar.

keep going.

How did I miss this article?
The interviewer has spoken as well or even better than Shiv Kumar Sharma. 👏

Originally posted by: punjini

How did I miss this article?
The interviewer has spoken as well or even better than Shiv Kumar Sharma. 👏

Santoor is my favorite instrument. I am tempted to say it is a percussion instrument with melody. I have had the  opportunity to listen to Ptji close quarters and he is a genious.

Interviews are worth reading when the person doing the interview is aware of the subject and talks intelligently. I should admit, I liked the way it was conducted.

I am planning to have my son learn santoor.

Thanks Swar raj ji. Very nice interview. 👏




Edited by apparaohoare - 18 years ago

appa ji where were you bhai....is every thing fine...

The sound of santoor is simply marvellous. Reminds you of gurgling brooks, snow clad mountains, blue sky, paradise...It is enirely thanks to Pt Shiv Kumar Sharma that people know what a santoor is. He had been playing it in the background music of Hindi films for ages, but no one knew!

Now when I hear the santoor in old Hindi film songs, I realise what an important role this instrument has played in setting the mood of the song.

Panditji elevated this folk instrument to the status of a classical instrument! He is a genius, yet he is incredibly modest and honest. Just hope that he is training some good disciples otherwise there will be no one after him to carry the legacy forward.

In fact there is one very ardent disciple in the Bay Area. We are planning a local concert.
I used to learn tabla - punjab gharana style from him.

Check out www.santoorindia.com

Originally posted by: MrspetloverUS

I have had the pleasure of listening to Pt SSji numerous time in that same Occidental college, Herrick chapel which has real capacity of probably 150 people but gets croded by may be 300+ people. It is a different experience all together to see him live everytime along with Ustad Zakir hussain.

Yes it is a percussion insturment similar to hammer dulcimer. As a matter of fact we own one and my husband plays it. 😊

It is pleasing to know that you have a santoor player at home. I have quite a few friends in the L.A area that are good musicians and play professionally.
Do let us know if he plays professionally.

Santoor
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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The santoor is a trapezoid-shaped hammered dulcimer often made of walnut, with seventy strings. The special-shaped mallets (mezrab) are lightweight and are held between the index and middle fingers. A typical santoor has two sets of bridges, providing a range of three octaves.

In Sanskrit Santoor means "one hundred strings" called the Shata-tantri Veena or "a hundred-stringed lute". Presumably, the itinerant musicians and gypsies carried this instrument in their wanderings across Asia and Europe, giving rise to a variety of similar instruments.

In the music encyclopedias the santoor is found under the category of hammered dulcimer. Popular by the similar name santour in Iran, Iraq Pakistan and Turkey, it is a 72-stringed instrument. In China, it is the yang-qin with 45 strings, and the German version Hackbrett has 135 strings. The santouri in Greece, the kantele in Finland and the cymbalum or zymbalon of Hungary and Romania are similar instruments. The cimbalom looks like a piano, but instead of a keyboard, large strikers are used on the strings.

The Indian santoor is more rectangular and can have more strings than the original Persian counterpart. The santoor as used in Indian classical musician is played with a pair of curved mallets made of walnut wood and the resultant melodies are similar to the music of the harp, harpsichord or piano. The sound chamber is also made of walnut wood and the bridges are made of local wood and painted dark like ebony. The strings are made of steel from Germany and England.

Notable Santoor players of present days are Pandit Bhajan Sopori , Pandit Shivkumar Sharma.

The younger generation of Santoor players include the names of Rahul Sharma and Abhay Rustum Sopori, Saurav Chatterjee and many other prominent names like Kakan Ghosal, Versha Aggarwal, Roshan Ali, Sandip Chatterjee.

[edit]
Development
The santoor was a part of the classical music of Kashmir in India. It was a 100 stringed instrument played in a style of music known as the Sufiana Mausiqi. The Sufi mystics used it as an accompaniment to their hymns.

In the Vedic period the strings were made of dried grass, later replaced by gut strings and finally the metal chords we see today. For an instrument to be accepted as classical it has to be able to emulate the human voice, the ultimate classical instrument. This requires the effect of meend (glissando), which is the ability to pass, unbroken, from one note to another, as opposed to staccato.

The santoor in Iran, is one of the most popular instruments among the musicians. The most well-known maestro, who has had the most contribution to the popularity of the santoor in Iran, is Maestro Faramarz Payvar. He has published several books, composed tens of pieces, and lead tens of concerts in Iran and other countries. His publications in music started a revolution in Iranian classic music, which had been tought before without any written materials. Today, a santoor player in Iran has the best ever source of teaching materials from the beginning to advanced level by Maestro Faramarz Payvar.

[edit]
Anatomy of the santoor
The santoor is basically made out of wood. The framework is generally made out of either Walnut or Maple wood. The top and bottom boards sometimes can be either plywood or veneer. On the top board, also known as sound board, wooden bridges are placed, in order to seat stretched strings across. The strings are tied on nails or pins on the left side of the instrument and are stretched over the sound board on top of the bridges to the right side.

On the right side there are steel tuning pegs or tuning pins, as they are commonly known, that allows tuning each individual string to a desired musical note or a frequency or a pitch. The santoor is a unique Indian string instrument that is not plucked or bowed but is played with a pair of light wooden mallets or hammers. The santoor is played while sitting in an asana called Ardha-sampadha position and placing it on top of the lap.

The santoor is a flat shaped instrument in the form of a trapezoid that means it is wider at one end and short at the other end. It is a wooden box that is broader in size for base notes or low pitch notes and is tapered at the other side for the high-pitched notes. While playing, the broad side is closer to the waist of the musician and the shorter side is away from the musician. Both left and right hands are used to lightly strike the strikers on the strings. One can also choose to skilfully glide the strikers on the strings.

In any case, the santoor is a very delicate instrument and is very sensitive to such light strokes and glides. The strokes are played always on the strings either closer to the bridges or a little away from bridges. Both styles result in different tones. Sometimes strokes by one hand can be muffled by the other hand by using the face of the palm just to create a variety.