The Devil's Advocate:Cabir/Mukti vs Alya

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BoxedIn

@BoxedIn

Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

#11

I will type a longer reply to this later but just wanted to point out that Cabir knew the risk he was running- Harshad did not spring it on him out of the blue. So the 'outing' here is definitely a case of blackmail for me, not anything akin to attempted rape, simply because Cabir consciously made tat choice, no matter how tough it was to choose for him. The physical assault on Cabir came after he played Harshad's video. Which puts in a different moral category altogether.

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M R

@rubys07

Rocker

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#12

Originally posted by: AnomanderRake
Everyone else will reply to your posts soon.
I feel like a rockstar with all the warm welcome

Just wanted to clarify to genie, this qustion was directed to the audience. I know for a fact that if it was an attempted rape on Mukti and there was forgiveness to be asked , I would be bearing cudgels, so this is part self-reflection, part understanding psychology.

Personally I feel that asking forgiveness from Cabir for Harshad or even just letting go is WRONG. I sympathise with Alya to a level because Harshad is her only family, but I'm not ready to justify her act of demanding forgiveness from Mukti or Cabir. Mukti is scarred for life. No matter what, she can't just undo the past with Harshad and the reckless roller coaster ride that her life has been since then. Her issue with Harshad is personal. With Cabir it's way more than that. Harshad did rape Cabir, metaphorically. Like you said, rape is never about sex, it is about Power, to demean the victim. Harshad did want to demean Cabir. Even if Harshad was truly repentant I don't think Cabir forgiving him is in anyway justified. Fab5 had sexually humiliated Shahid once, which is why I can never imagine Shahid actually forgiving Fab5. Just because Cabir is gay, doesn't mean forgiving would be easy for him. Forgiving Harshad, specially because Alya wants it, should never be an option for him.

p.s. I love reading your posts. I'd thought of not commenting but I be slightly biased toward Cabira so kindly tolerate my rant😳

Edited by rubys07 - 10 years ago

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prishika

@prishika

Navigator

Posted: 10 years ago

#13

Okay...first bits first. This can't be called rape in its generic definition. If you delve deeper into the meaning of what rape is and does, then yes there are feelings and emotions involved...that Cabir feels that could be equated somewhat, to what a rape victim feels. The shame, the loss of one's dignity, etc

BUT this wasn't rape, it was out and out a homophobic attack. It wasn't just revenge by Harshad because Cabir showed people a video of him(Harshad) in the similar way that Harshad had. Harshad is a homophobic jerk and that is why he did what he did. The grease on their faces after the attack is one of sickest things in that episode. I don't dislike Harshad because Fab5 hates him. I dislike him because he does things with deliberate thought, with intention to hurt and destroy lives.

Alya is right in her own way. Harshad is her brother after all. Blood being thicker than water and all that jazz. What I don't understand is why she thinks that just because they are her friends, Fab 5 - mainly Mukti and Cabir should forgive Harshad. She has seen the damage done to Mukti. Maybe not on Cabir, because he goes around smiling. But c'mon, this was the same girl whose been "growing up" with Fab 5 since forever it seems. Does she not know the difference between real emotions and faked ones? Harshad does seem to love Alya in some twisted way because we've seem him get protective about her but apparently, he hates Fab5 more than he loves his sister. She knows that too. She herself had said that he uses what she says/shares against her. Is it that easy to fool her - which we all know Harshad is doing?! Or maybe all logical thoughts take a back seat when family is involved.

i want to write more, but Medha S has written down everything that I want to say. Word for word, verbatim to what my thought process was on the whole thing.

PS - On an aside - I love the fact that despite being a teenage love story, this show brings out some of the best discussions. I'm mostly a silent member, but there have been posts which just MAKE me want to participate. lol

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sourmisery

@sourmisery

Stunner

+ 7

Posted: 10 years ago

#14

OMO!! CATTYY!!!!

🤗🤗🤗🤗🤗

I am effin' ecstatic seeing such awesome discussion going around the forum. Will get it back to all later at night! Eeeppss! So happy to see you back! <3

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Mrinal Krishna

@Sexpot

Voyager

Posted: 10 years ago

#15

The forum is not the same without you bas

Adhi trust you to make such a "satanic" comeback. It's genius.

So many aspects and dilemmas to be explored and discussed.

(It's so sad that the guy playing Harshad's character was a lousy actor. Imagine our added dilemma if he had done the charming,vain, intelligent,promiscuous, manipulative person I.e sociopath with any skill this conflict would have been even more riveting)

There are many aspects to this post there is an ethical dilemma, social dilemma, "coming of age" dilemma, "karma is a bitch" dilemma and not to forget the compromise necessary to propel this story forwards. So for practical purposes it may be deemed necessary for Harshad to be released.

No two crimes are similar or comparable. The "Corpus delicti" which are the fundamental facts that prove a crime vs "Mens rea" which is intent or knowledge of criminal act are very difficult ethically to discuss. So to compare two separate crimes with similar outcomes would depend on whether the Corpus delicti had more validity than Mens rea and vice versa.

Alya is not troubled by either of these,she is acting in loco parentis and Harshad knows he can manipulate this to his benefit. Her justification is valid,clear and necessary because her brother is also her guardian and his crime is pardonable. We as an audience have to imagine ( bad acting) a sociopath and know he cannot be redeemed. But the people closest to a sociopath are the last to realise hence I cannot grudge Alya her blindside.

Cabir equally makes a valid point, his outing lead him to a lot of uncontrollable outcomes. Imagine his chagrin and desperation. His persecution is unquestionable and incomparable, he lost his " astitva" for a lack of better word. His sanity,his rebuild is based on Harshad's ignominy. I cannot grudge him that.

I don't know if that made sense. I'm overwhelmed with work but just can't resist forum.

Edited by annboleyn - 10 years ago

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Cat.

@Cat.

Sparkler

+ 6

Posted: 10 years ago

#16

Originally posted by: charminggenie
It's not about forgiveness , because asking that from anyone is defeating the purpose of this word.
This is where Alya is wrong. She can ask for favour and advocate for her brother but to expect fab5 to let this be in the past is not right. But to her as a character forgiveness is everything, her brother probably used the term to play with her emotions all the time , this made her to forgive him for everything and still sort of maintain that bond .

Now to your question - For Alya she has seen fab5 strip,humiliate and they did spread his video around the campus. So they kind of played around with Shahid too , whatever be the reason but the action was familiar to Alya which fab5 never took a moral responsibility.

So for her it's difficult to understand Cabir's point because she goes back to their own actions like with Shahid and thinks well we did the same so why is Bhai so non-redeemable even when Cabir played his own video joke on Harshad. Manik beat him up too. So action by action- she feels they all are the same. She cannot see the victim because as a group they never did , which is why the conflict arises.

This is also because fab5 never kind of introspecting their actions earlier , there was never the guilt because they had a justification every single time.

That is why in her head Alya doesn't think too much about the impact Harshad's video had on Cabir. Because these kids have never thought about the victims , that guilt was never there. Hence she is finding difficult to understand his point. Also the anger, the disappointment is clouding her head.

Genie, I can stay away from IF but I cant stop my mind from questioning and asking answers.

Again I have no problem with Alya's expectations after all when it is all said and done, blood is thicker than water and unless we are put in a position like her, its easy to pass judgement on her.

For me, the question is with us as the audience, I feel like a lot of us sympathise with Alya but what if the crime was attempted rape, would our reaction be different?

For a gay person, this could be equivalent to attempted rape, the helplessness, the shaming, the pain etc. My point being that its easier for us to understand what an attempted rape means to a woman as opposed to what this assault and shaming means to Cabir.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#17

@CC - I edited my reply to thew earlier post.

As a viewer it depends if you see outing of a gay guy as rape or not. Remove the victim perspective too then. It becomes ambiguous , the society considers it as a moral offence not a crime- which is why media, gossip magazines thrive with such news. Did they not ran a chase against NPH trying ton out him for years, as shameful as it is , society doesn't see it as a crime, definitely not as a rape, more as floundering the privacy.

The recently leaked explicit pictures of HW stars drew mixed reactions, while the action was panned, society refused to see it as rape. Infact J Law was dissed for the stating that.

So like I said i the ball is in viewers court, then personal perceptions, moral compass works, or we look at the legal frame and define the crime under respective category.

The debate is what comes under rape? From the present quoted definition outing someone's sexuality is not rape. It is strictly considered as a physical unwanted intrusion - so by that logic , it is very difficult to compare Cabir's situation with a rape on Mukti .

Edited by charminggenie - 10 years ago

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#18

Is that my Cat!! Nooo Stay woman, I be missing you like crazy. But right so you to give something that is sure to mindf**k us all. Don't go crazy this boxing day, eh!! And heard the skin is glowing thanks to the detox, sinners don't go green , k.

Alright , I be back for the real deal because this is a rubber that I need to stretch in my head! love!

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BoxedIn

@BoxedIn

Dazzler

Posted: 10 years ago

#19

I'm so glad to see you here. 🤗

Will be back later after watching the episode.

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charminggenie

@charminggenie

Stunner

+ 2

Posted: 10 years ago

#20

Oh as a viewer, CC- what they did to Shahid was also a crime right ? That was a form of sexual offence too? The buck should have stopped right then and there. We understood that because we looked from the POV of characters not as a viewer .

outing someone is a moral offence , unfortunately it's not a legal one. We have Perez Hilton, other zillion magazines doing the same everyday. We buy it , read it and discuss, become party to this moral shame but is it rape? Thats debatable. Morally Harshad is guilty of it but can this be a factor for his jailtime- Nope. Society defines rape differently, not just for gays but for every individual.

Edited by charminggenie - 10 years ago

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The Devil's Advocate:Cabir/Mukti vs Alya - Page 2

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