Did Jaidrath and his descendants rule Indus valley areas too?

People if we believe that Mahabharata is true and not a story, then what areas did Jaidrath rule over?

I know it's Sindh but the present day Sindh also contain the area of Indus valley civilization including Harappa and Mohan Jo Daro.

Did Jaidrath also rule over these areas??

If Mahabharata actually happened in or around 3150BC, then the remanants of Indus valley that we have is of at least 1200 years after the rule of Jaidrath!!!

Do both these both definitions match??

Do we know who succeeded onto the throne of Sindh later? If they were why don't we find anything related to Mahabharata in Indus valley sites

Varahamihira said MBh was around mid 2000s BC. The problem with using this calculation to date MBh NOW is that he wasn't using the GREGORIAN CALENDAR.  It may have been correct from Varahamihira's POV, but we don't know what a year meant to him. Edited to Add: he did use solar movements for his astronomical calculations, so I'm wrong here.

Then there is a Jain inscription which suggests 2300 or so BCE. Same issue with calendar. Edited to Add: same as above.

The 3000 BC I believe comes from Aryabhatta's calculation. But he went by planetary positions mentioned, nothing else.

Again, all of these were purely astronomical calculations.

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Astronomy is a science, but archaeology is equally important. 

Mahabharata happened in Iron Age as iron is definitely mentioned as is painted grayware. 

The ancient iron artefacts found in India can be dated back to 2400 BC at the earliest.

We do need to include painted grayware when dating MBh, and the earliest found large PGW discoveries have been made in both Mathura and Ahichhatra, the part of Panchal annexed by Pandavas for Drona. PGW era has been dated to have started around 1500 BC, but there is also a thought that the date could be stretched as far back as 2000 or so BC. Excavations done in Hastinapuri dated PGW later to 1500 to 110 BC. A couple of years ago, PGW was found in a region not mentioned in MBh dating back to 2000 BC.

Thus far, 2000 BC seems to be the earliest archaeologically possible date for MBh. Unless and until more archaeological discoveries are made, that is.😆

(A Google search will give you citations. Since these are research papers, I'm not sure of copyright issues. Therefore, not adding here).

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Re: Indus Valley. Archaeologically speaking, civilizations are literally built on top of each other. I haven't looked at findings of later civilizations in the Indus valley area, but there surely are. After all, there are people living there to this day. So later findings suggesting Iron Age and PGW might be from Jayadrath era and around. 

^^^ 

Thanks for your reply.

The western historians give 1500BCE as the time for the Aryan invasion and the formation of Vedas. That according to them is around 1300BCE. 

The western historians who believe in Mahabharata (and mostly they do. Ramayana is a fiction for them but Mahabharata true history), give it a date of around 9th century BCE. In fact calculations show that around 830BCE there was a solar eclipse in the areas around north west India. That they attribute to the Jaidrath vadh sunset episode.

But I doubt this since the timelines are way too small. If Aryans invaded by 1500s, then how come they became devotees of Mahadev by 9th century. 600-700 years is too small a time to merge into different culture. Mahadev was definitely not an Aryan God so why was He their reverred God? Remember here they didn't convert to the religion of locals, Indra still was great and supreme for them, they had merged with the locals to accept their God too as their own. This intermingling takes time. We have been living with Muslims for 1200 years, still neither Muslims consider Krishna as God nor we consider Prophet Muhhamad at par with Ram..

So this intermingling in 700 years seems impossible to me. 

But if we go by your timelines then Mahabharata happened around 1500 BCE, then what could be the time of Aryan invasion?? It again intermingles with the Indus valley timeline, their land was the only area for them to come, if Mahabharata happened around 1400 BCE then Aryans must have come in around 2400-2600BCE, which means they interacted with Indus valley people in their way, but for some reasons they find no mention either in Vedas nor the Indus valley records suggest any invasion to their lands. Aside 1500BCE is also the time for the destruction of Indus valley, so why didn't they participate in the war? When people from as far as south India and north east did. 

The only thing which can fit here is that probably Aryans came around 3000BCE and entered into the Indo Gangetic planes by 25000BCE, having left the Indus valley regions. The people who developed Indus valley civilization probably then came later and settled there

They probably although had some interactions with Aryans but mainly had their own system. They weren't into Aryavarta or Bharatvarsh politics and hence kept neutral during the war. They could also be the Nagas who were destroyed by Abhirs. Balram ji mentions something in those lines after returning from his pilgrimage

I no longer put much store by historians unless there are written records. Because historians are invariably influenced by politicians. Also, AFAIK, Indus Valley script has not yet been decoded, and for all practical purposes, there are no historical records.

The only reliable evidence is that which can be materially proven.

ie, archaeology and DNA.

Simply put, archaeoDNA studies show there are 2 general ancestries in South Asia. One called Ancestral South Indian/Indus Valley. The second, Ancestral North Indian with more Steppe genes in common with Steppe people than ASI/IVC ancestry does. 

When Rakhigarhi remains were discovered, they were carbon-dated back to IVC time, and there was great excitement because presence of so-called Steppe gene would have proved it was present in India BEFORE the time of supposed invasion. Absence would prove pretty much nothing as invasion could have happened (and is thought to have happened) later. OR... as opponents of invasion theory argue, the mixing could well have happened in the opposite direction, with ANI people traveling and dispersing DNA across Eurasia and bringing genetic material back.

I'll point you in the direction of 2 articles and you can trace back studies from there

https://qz.com/india/694925/the-indus-valley-civilisation-is-2500-years-older-than-previously-believed/

https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/where-did-we-come-from-from-here-and-theredna-findings-from-rakhigarhi-reveal-hard-truths/302129

The 2nd one has to be carefully read because the same study published in CELL was touted as evidence AGAINST Aryan invasion theory when it says the opposite if anything. In reality, it simply states there was no Steppe gene in Rakhigarhi DNA which means the Steppe gene in Indian population came later. As I said before, whether native Indians traveled outside and brought back the gene or Steppe people invaded has yet to be proven.

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As things stand: IVC came first, then in-migration/out-migration/whatever, then Vedic civilization. Regardless, the IVC people were likely pushed southward when the mingling of DNA happened.

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Since it seems to create vehement emotional responses in people for reasons I will never understand, let me just clarify I don't give a **** which theory is correct except as a matter of academic interest. Wherever they came from, they were my ancestors. 

As for worshiping Mahadev, well... Indian population to this day adopts any religion and Indianizes it😆. 

CAVEAT: I'm neither an archaeologist nor a geneticist. My info comes from reading the published papers. Please do so yourself and reach your own conclusions.

^^^^ 

Thankyou so much for your responses. Actually I do not know if or not Aryan invasion theory is true or not. But the thing which confuses me is the timeline. 

If Indus valley ended by 1500BC and Aryans came after this, then there is only a thousand years for Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata and amalgamation of various totems, non Aryan groups in human definition of Aryans, since by the time of Gautam Buddha and Mahavira Jain we don't have references to Daityas, Danavs, Rakshas or Nagas, Yakshas, Vanars etc. In fact by sixth century BC we had Parshvanathji who condemned the very idea of war, which was so highly revered in Mahabharata or Geeta. 

1000 years is too small a duration for so much to happen!! 

If we can have the end date of Indus valley civilization pushed back by thousand years or a time of co existence of Indus Valley and Aryavarta civilizations could have been there, then probably that removes the discrepancies by a loads

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

^^^^ 

Thankyou so much for your responses. Actually I do not know if or not Aryan invasion theory is true or not. But the thing which confuses me is the timeline. 

If Indus valley ended by 1500BC and Aryans came after this, then there is only a thousand years for Vedas, Ramayana, Mahabharata and amalgamation of various totems, non Aryan groups in human definition of Aryans, since by the time of Gautam Buddha and Mahavira Jain we don't have references to Daityas, Danavs, Rakshas or Nagas, Yakshas, Vanars etc. In fact by sixth century BC we had Parshvanathji who condemned the very idea of war, which was so highly revered in Mahabharata or Geeta. 

1000 years is too small a duration for so much to happen!! 

If we can have the end date of Indus valley civilization pushed back by thousand years or a time of co existence of Indus Valley and Aryavarta civilizations could have been there, then probably that removes the discrepancies by a loads

AIT or Indian origin theory, invasion/change happened DURING IVC, pushing them people southward over centuries. It isn't that IVC ended, then AIT/Vedic civilization happened. There was overlap. Rakhigarhi was clearly before that proposed overlap period.

I happen to think/believe that the Ramayan and Mahabharat both took place in the post Indus Valley Era - during the first waves of Aryan rule.  IVC may well have coincided w/ the Satya Yuga

Originally posted by: .Vrish.

I happen to think/believe that the Ramayan and Mahabharat both took place in the post Indus Valley Era - during the first waves of Aryan rule.  IVC may well have coincided w/ the Satya Yuga

That's exactly what I was thinking, Satyug is basically the time of formation of Vedas. So maybe Vedas were composed during the end of IVC i.e around 17-18th century BCE. Maybe the combat of Indra with Panis in the Vedas refer to the combat of IVC people with Aryans who might have been entering then

But if Mahabharata and Ramayana both happened after IVC( to be honest I doubt the historicity of Ramayana but I am sure Mahabharata happened) then what was the timeframe?? Did these happen around 8-11th century BCE?? So how come within 800-1000 years those invaders started believing this as their country with no memories of their original homes?? Muslims invaded India around 11th century and they call themselves Arabs so why these people considered India their land??

We can not assume that Mahabharata happened any later than 8th century BCE since by 5th century Buddha era, we don't find any remnants of Rakshas, Nagas Yakshas etc which were common in Mahabharata. This indicates that these tribes/communities had by then made their place into the Aryan (Manushya) societies. Such intermingling takes time. 

Plus the change of Vedic Sansksrit to Classical Sanskrit and Prakrit also needs time, some how 1500 years seems very less a time for so much to happen

Originally posted by: FlauntPessimism

That's exactly what I was thinking, Satyug is basically the time of formation of Vedas. So maybe Vedas were composed during the end of IVC i.e around 17-18th century BCE. Maybe the combat of Indra with Panis in the Vedas refer to the combat of IVC people with Aryans who might have been entering then

But if Mahabharata and Ramayana both happened after IVC( to be honest I doubt the historicity of Ramayana but I am sure Mahabharata happened) then what was the timeframe?? Did these happen around 8-11th century BCE?? So how come within 800-1000 years those invaders started believing this as their country with no memories of their original homes?? Muslims invaded India around 11th century and they call themselves Arabs so why these people considered India their land??

We can not assume that Mahabharata happened any later than 8th century BCE since by 5th century Buddha era, we don't find any remnants of Rakshas, Nagas Yakshas etc which were common in Mahabharata. This indicates that these tribes/communities had by then made their place into the Aryan (Manushya) societies. Such intermingling takes time. 

Plus the change of Vedic Sansksrit to Classical Sanskrit and Prakrit also needs time, some how 1500 years seems very less a time for so much to happen

IVC, then invasion/outmigration towards the end of IVC during which vedas were composed, then Mbh.

1500 years is a very long time when you don't have proper written records. For ex. Columbus reached America in 1492. Most Americans can't tell how far back their ancestry in the country extends. Some even claim Native American ancestry without any proof. This is WITH WRITTEN RECORDS. So imagine when history is whatever your grandparents tell you.

There are now services like Ancestry and 23andme, which once they get a hair or nail sample, can analyze the DNA and then trace one's heritage even out of the country.  Guess if that service ever comes to India, a lot of people can determine how far they can be traced, and from where