Ques on MahaBhrarta. Peep in/ DT Nt pg 25 - Page 4

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Daakshaayani Aadarsh

@PandavPranayini

Goldie

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: paartha
Again, respect your views but I have a slightly different take on it. Guess that is fine, since we are here to discuss and have our viewpoints.

I too wholeheartedly respect your views since I know that everyone will have different takes yet what binds us is devotion towards the Lord.

I feel each character in Mahabharat had some distinguishing trait such as devotion/friendship of Arjun to Lord Krishna, charitable quality of Karna, sticking to personal dharma such as in the case of Yudhistir, strictly adhering to vow like Bhisma, protective nature of Bhim, grit and determination of Draupadi, sense of justice of Vidhur and so on. So, it is not like everyone had same type of characteristics. I feel there was a special affection of Lord Krishna towards Arjun because of his devotion, friendship and innocence. It is clearly mentioned in Bhagwad Gita chapter 10 verse 37 (vrishneenaam vaasudevosmi paandavaanaam dhananjaya |
muneenaamapyaham vyaasaha kaveenaamushanaa kavihi) that amongst Pandavas, Arjun is his glory and called him as his Vibhuthi.

In the same Bhagavadgita, he also mentions that for him all are equal and he holds no special affection to one child of his. As far as I know, Kauravas were following adharma and thus he favoured Pandavas. Among Pandavas, he called Arjuna his glory, (paandavaanam dhananjaya). I have a slightly different take it. Does Dhananjaya refer to Arjuna alone? Does Vaasudeva refer to Krishna alone? We all know that Balarama is also a Vaasudeva. So when he said vrishneenaam vaasudevosmi, he said that among vrishnis, he is Balarama and Krishna. Now the next line. I know that throughout the epic Arjuna is referred to as Dhananjaya. But my pov is:

Dhanan + jaya = One who conquers over riches. We know that Arjuna conquered many kingdoms during the Rajasuya and thus got the name. But, didn't Bhima conquer many kingdoms as well? Doesn't that name refer to him as well? If Arjuna is Krishna's glory in paritraanaya saadhunam sense, then Bhima is his glory in vinaashayacha dushkritam sense. So, my analysis says that he referred to Bhima and Arjuna. 😊

I have loved these discussions, as you seem to have read Sanskrit texts and researching on your own too and seem to not lose your composure when reading views not matching yours.

Even I loved these, and will love to have more. Yes, I do not say I read, but I'm still reading and researching as Mahabharata and Pandavas are partially my life. 😳

I had many debates before so it's habitual for me to read opposing views as well. Some hurt me, some satisfy me, some makes me think, but I still respect everyone's opinions. 😊

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Y12345

@Y12345

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 6 years ago

Same here guys. Debates are really cool, you get so many perspectives, and open up to things you never thought.

Btw, when Krishna preached Arjun about BG, it was incrediblyconfusing for me to fully grasp everything.

And this ques always haunted me since childhood.

If Lord Krishna said that they are all soul, and he is just soul( aka energy), so we can assume that it is true and without the human body made up of 5 elements, and without a brain, consciousness can't exist right?

So if Lord Krishna saying he is eternal. he is everything and everywhere( which I agree) then I don't understand, how can the concept of dharma be understood without consciousness? How can a soul who has no consciousness adopt dharma?

Also he mention about reborn, but if we say that dharma is universal(thus no need for souls to understand) then how do we explain evolution? Because what was right at that time may not be right now. Like polygamy, or killing people, death penalties, etc..

I find that part confusing and but I hope my question is clear if not please let me know

Edited by Y12345 - 6 years ago

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mnx12

@mnx12

Channel Moderator

+ 9

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: Y12345
Same here guys. Debates are really cool, you get so many perspectives, and open up to things you never thought.
Btw, when Krishna preached Arjun about BG, it was incrediblyconfusing for me to fully grasp everything.
And this ques always haunted me since childhood.

If Lord Krishna said that they are all soul, and he is just soul( aka energy), so we can assume that it is true and without the human body made up of 5 elements, and without a brain, consciousness can't exist right?
So if Lord Krishna saying he is eternal. he is everything and everywhere( which I agree) then I don't understand, how can the concept of dharma be understood without consciousness? How can a soul who has no consciousness adopt dharma?

Also he mention about reborn, but if we say that dharma is universal(thus no need for souls to understand) then how do we explain evolution? Because what was right at that time may not be right now. Like polygamy, or killing people, death penalties, etc..
I find that part confusing and but I hope my question is clear if not please let me know

Soul is a witness. Nirgun Brhman is The Supreme Consciousness. A soul, when elevated higher Spiritually, realises Brhman- "Aham Brhmasmi", sees everything as "Brhman". When a soul is aligned with "The Supreme Consciuosness", he acts as a witeness. At that stage, everything is undersood, as everything appears as Brhman.

In BG, when Lord Krishna, showed Arjun, his Viraat swaroop, that was, Saguna Brhman, reavealing His Glory to another soul, trying to elevate him higher. After realising that, Arjun's doubts disappeared. He became a witness & proceeded with his Karma.

In the Beginning, only Nirgun Brhman was present. He wanted to become many, took a form- Sagun Brhman. Maya played after this stage, creating various elements, objects, Human, Animals etc.

One wish lead to another creating Karmas, actions, reactions, sense of right & wrong- resulting in cycle of births & rebirths.

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paartha

@paartha

Senior Member

Posted: 6 years ago

@mnx12 ... Beautifully explained and in such concise fashion. If not wrong, the explanation you have given, in subtle ways encompasses both Advaita and VishishtAdvaita philosophies?

I wish some of our texts are such clearly and concisely explained instead of incorporating too many technical/metaphysical details, which are really difficult to comprehend for the beginners.

One question have here, so was it like some self-sustaining action (ex: nuclear reaction) put in motion, which is going to continue till finite time it can sustain, or will it be in motion perpetually?

As I understand, as per our holy texts, there is a concept of cycle called Yuga which will be endlessly going on through the cycle of beginning and end. So, as per my understanding of your answer, the action was already set in motion and will continue endlessly through the Yugas via the cycle of Karma and it is irreversible and self-sustaining, meaning we cannot expect a universe full of all entities having the characteristics of Brahman (the supreme consciousness) because already elements like greed, anger and so on have risen due to Karmic results.

But, if for example, there is a hypothetical scenario of supreme consciousness achieved by all entities, will that signal an end to the cycle of Karma and there will be no longer be a universe in continuous motion of life/birth, but only something similar like pure light will be left akin to consciousness that will be pervading the universe? Since, as per my understanding, if everyone has achieved the state of supreme consciousness, then Karma will no longer be able play a role, so the cycle of birth/death will stop and may be only pure light will be there in the universe as a symbol of a blissful state?

Could you please clarify this.

Thank you.

Edited by paartha - 6 years ago

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Daakshaayani Aadarsh

@PandavPranayini

Goldie

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: Y12345

If Lord Krishna said that they are all soul, and he is just soul( aka energy), so we can assume that it is true and without the human body made up of 5 elements, and without a brain, consciousness can't exist right?
So if Lord Krishna saying he is eternal. he is everything and everywhere( which I agree) then I don't understand, how can the concept of dharma be understood without consciousness? How can a soul who has no consciousness adopt dharma?

According to Bhagavadgita, Dharma comes from the root word dhri, which means dharan karane yogya, or "responsibilities, duties, thoughts, and actions that are appropriate for us." There are actually two kinds of dharma, material dharma and spiritual dharma. These two kinds of dharma are based upon two different understandings of the self. When we identify ourselves as the body, then our dharma is determined in accordance with our bodily designations, obligations, duties, and norms. Hence, serving the bodily parents, fulfilling the responsibilities to society, nation, etc. are all bodily dharma. This is also called apara dharma or material dharma. This includes the dharma as a Brahmin, Kshatriya, etc. However, when we identify ourselves as the soul, we have no material designations of varna (social class) and ashram (status in life). The soul's Father, Mother, Friend, Beloved, and resting place are all God. Hence our one and only dharma becomes loving devotional service to God. This is also called para dharma or spiritual dharma. If one leaves the material dharma, it is considered a sin due to dereliction of duty. But if one leaves material dharma and takes the shelter of spiritual dharma, it is not a sin. Our mind and soul are not different, but brain is different. Brain thinks, soul/mind feels. For a soul to adopt it's dharma, brain is not needed. It just needs to feel the love and devotion towards God, that is the soul's only dharma and it does not require understanding of concepts at all.

Edited by KalyaniPanchali - 6 years ago

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paartha

@paartha

Senior Member

Posted: 6 years ago

Beautiful explanation 👏, may be that's why Lord Krishna says devotion and surrender to him are paramount rather than just trying to understand his ways only through our intellect, as our intellect may be limited to understand his ways.

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Daakshaayani Aadarsh

@PandavPranayini

Goldie

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: paartha
Beautiful explanation 👏, may be that's why Lord Krishna says devotion and surrender to him are paramount rather than just trying to understand his ways only through our intellect, as our intellect may be limited to understand his ways.

That is what Pandavas did. Entire Aryavarta knows that Krishna is God himself, but still considered their material dharmas higher than spiritual dharma. But Pandavas alone surrendered to him and followed his each and every order.

sarva-dharma parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja

aham tvam sarvapapebhyo mokshayishyami ma shuchah

Abandon all varieties of dharmas and simply surrender unto me alone. I shall liberate you from all sins; do not fear.

Pandavas committed a mistake/sin and with true guilty and repentant feelings, they surrendered to the Lord, and he liberated them. Just like how he rescued Draupadi, when she surrendered to him completely. This shows Lord is impartial and responds equally and similiarly to guilty souls and innocent souls, shows affection similiarly, as long as guilty ones truly repent and surrender to him.😊

Edited by KalyaniPanchali - 6 years ago

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Y12345

@Y12345

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 6 years ago

@mnx : Thank you so much. Beautifully explained.

@KP: That's nice. The 2 different types of Dharma. Remember, before in earlier pages, we were debating about treachery and this paragraph totally fits that. Spiritual dharma is always higher, and maybe that's why Krishna did what he did.

Paartha is also right, our intellect are truly limited to understand him, but if Krishna wanted people to realize that they are soul( and all that he preached Arjun) then there must be a way to understand what he said. I also agree that BG/MB is full of technical words, difficult to understand

Edited by Y12345 - 6 years ago

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Y12345

@Y12345

IF-Rockerz

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: paartha
@mnx12 ... Beautifully explained and in such concise fashion. If not wrong, the explanation you have given, in subtle ways encompasses both Advaita and VishishtAdvaita philosophies?
I wish some of our texts are such clearly and concisely explained instead of incorporating too many technical/metaphysical details, which are really difficult to comprehend for the beginners.

One question have here, so was it like some self-sustaining action (ex: nuclear reaction) put in motion, which is going to continue till finite time it can sustain, or will it be in motion perpetually?

As I understand, as per our holy texts, there is a concept of cycle called Yuga which will be endlessly going on through the cycle of beginning and end. So, as per my understanding of your answer, the action was already set in motion and will continue endlessly through the Yugas via the cycle of Karma and it is irreversible and self-sustaining, meaning we cannot expect a universe full of all entities having the characteristics of Brahman (the supreme consciousness) because already elements like greed, anger and so on have risen due to Karmic results.

But, if for example, there is a hypothetical scenario of supreme consciousness achieved by all entities, will that signal an end to the cycle of Karma and there will be no longer be a universe in continuous motion of life/birth, but only something similar like pure light will be left akin to consciousness that will be pervading the universe? Since, as per my understanding, if everyone has achieved the state of supreme consciousness, then Karma will no longer be able play a role, so the cycle of birth/death will stop and may be only pure light will be there in the universe as a symbol of a blissful state?

Could you please clarify this.

Thank you.

Awesome analysis here.

@bold : I have the same question.

Regarding last para, that would be great, pure light but there are things BG doesn't tell us ( or it did but I didnt understand) is that there must have been a beginning of something.

Never was there a time when I did not exist
nor you nor these lords of men.
Neither will there be a time when we shall not exist;
we all exist from now on.
As the soul experiences in this body
childhood, youth, and old age,
so also it acquires another body;
the sage in this is not deluded.

There must have been a start of something. As you said, in the beginning of time, it is possible that all entities had supreme consciousness(just my POV), but then when greed/ego etc creeps in, its a irreversible process. Karma will always play a role, it's a cycle, and there is something called residual karma. So everyone who is born has already a karma baggage( I call it residual karma) and once we pay this share of residual karma, we take more of us( depending on the person because everyone is grey that's what MB taught us, even great personalities like Bhima was grey) So in a birth, even if a person attained supreme consciousnesses, residual karma will always be there ( if you believe in reincarnation)

If someone could quote( and explain if thats mentioned in BG that would be great)

And there must be something called balance, equilibrium. I don't know how to explain that, but there must be good and bad. As you said, what will happen to the cycle of birth and death if there were no evil?

Evil doesn't necessarily mean bad like we all know. Another question thar crop up is that if one doesn't realize supreme consciousness, but did good deeds in his life, how would we term him?

Like absence of heat, is called cold, absence of good, can also be called evil( perhaps). Side note: Do we say that we need sadness to know happiness?

If one pair crease to exist, the other loses its significant.If the injustice is removed, where is the need of effort to avoid the injustice and support the justice? ( therefore where is the need of God)

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mnx12

@mnx12

Channel Moderator

+ 9

Posted: 6 years ago

This content was originally posted by: paartha
@mnx12 ... Beautifully explained and in such concise fashion. If not wrong, the explanation you have given, in subtle ways encompasses both Advaita and VishishtAdvaita philosophies?
I wish some of our texts are such clearly and concisely explained instead of incorporating too many technical/metaphysical details, which are really difficult to comprehend for the beginners.

One question have here, so was it like some self-sustaining action (ex: nuclear reaction) put in motion, which is going to continue till finite time it can sustain, or will it be in motion perpetually?

As I understand, as per our holy texts, there is a concept of cycle called Yuga which will be endlessly going on through the cycle of beginning and end. So, as per my understanding of your answer, the action was already set in motion and will continue endlessly through the Yugas via the cycle of Karma and it is irreversible and self-sustaining, meaning we cannot expect a universe full of all entities having the characteristics of Brahman (the supreme consciousness) because already elements like greed, anger and so on have risen due to Karmic results.

But, if for example, there is a hypothetical scenario of supreme consciousness achieved by all entities, will that signal an end to the cycle of Karma and there will be no longer be a universe in continuous motion of life/birth, but only something similar like pure light will be left akin to consciousness that will be pervading the universe? Since, as per my understanding, if everyone has achieved the state of supreme consciousness, then Karma will no longer be able play a role, so the cycle of birth/death will stop and may be only pure light will be there in the universe as a symbol of a blissful state?

Could you please clarify this.

Thank you.

Am amazed at this level of understanding, which was seen 4-5 years back in this forum. Am glad to see to once again. 😊
You are right. Answer is based on Trika Philosophy, Shree Vidya, The Shiv Sutras.
It can be a Self Sustaining motion technically giving various powers, Entities, to retain balance in the creation. Destruction is the beginning of new creation.
This entire debate is based on various perspectives of process involved in creating balance at the end of Dwapar Yuga.
Individual soul's realisation of- "Aham Brhmasmi", has been going on since a very long time. Which is called-"Khand Mahayoga", where a Guru helps in reaching this stage. Realised souls, lives till all their Karmas are exhausted finally merging in Brhman at the end of their life span.
There is an amazing concept of-"Akhand Mahayoga", where Mahaguru is working towards liberating the entire living creation. End of this process can be visualised as, all the souls, getting elevated to the highest level, merging in Brhaman.
Pralaya, indicates end of entire creation, with all souls at different level. But Akhand Mayhayoga, aims at liberating all the souls. Known example of such Mahaguru is Maharshi Arvind or Aurobindo & some more, who were working towards Divine Mother's descent to elevate all the souls. Some of them are not with us. Others are working towards this goal, which is a huge task.
A Guru is needed in the path of Spirituality, who should be a Realised soul himself/herself.
Lord Krishna was Guru, who guided all at differet levels. Those who saw him as, Saguna Brhman eg, Bhishma, Arjun got duely rewarded depending on their karma.

Edited by mnx12 - 6 years ago

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