-:Chat with Indrajit Bandyopadhyay:- Check page 2 - Page 2

Hi all ...

Special thanks to Maverick_me for giving me the opportunity to be a part of this beautiful group of Mahabharata lovers ...

First of all, it is a great comfort to be among Mahabharata lovers whether we agree or not on interpretation ...

My approach to Mahabharata is simple and based on Common Sense (actually I am incapable of any extra-sense perception ... so, it is from this limited sphere of senses that I approach Mahabharata) -

1)         It is poetry ... Kavya ... so, Metaphors are bound to abound. Problems arise when we take Metaphors literally ... and I think many Myths are born owing to that. Suppose I say, "the child is a flower." Now, nobody would believe that a child can actually be a flower, but everybody would surely appreciate the spirit behind the utterance ... that is, the child is LIKE a flower.

            Now, suppose I say, "Krishna is Flower." A Rational mind will still interpret it the same way like the previous statement. However, a Believer who believes Krishna to be God might interpret that Krishna MUST HAVE BEEN A FLOWER at some phase of his life. And thus a story is born ... a Myth something like ... "One day, Krishna went to the forest .. met a Rishi ... who blessed/cursed him Be a flower.' And so, Krishna turned into a flower."

            Got it?

            In Ramayana, Valmiki says time and again "Rama is like Vishnu"... and thus is born the story "Rama is Vishnuu" or Rama = Vishnu. Similar is the case with Krishna in Mahabharata. (Pl remember, there is also a whole Ramayana in Mahabharata ... and the narrator of that Ramayana is Rishi Markandeya.)

            That is one of my approaches to Mahakavya Mahabharata. When a Narrative does not pass the test of Rationality, I will better interpret it as being born of a Metaphor. That way, we need not have to reject a Narrative as "foolish," "superstitious" or "Irrational" Myth. When I say, "The child is a flower" - is anybody blaming me for being superstitious?

 

2) Mahabharata is history ... nay, something more extensive than that ... Itihasa ... History is only a part of Itihasa ...

            Now, since Mahabharata is Itihasa, it must have factual basis ... and factual basis has to be Human Reality ...

            So, we have Mahabharata = Kavya on Itihasa ... that Shakespeare did in his Hamlet or Macbeth. Now, when Macbeth murders King Duncan, is anybody blaming Shakespeare for murdering Duncan?

            Just see the hypocrisy in this respect ... may be owing to 200 years of Western Brain-Washing ...

            When Krishna or this character or that character says something, we say ... Vyasa said so. Why? If we do not blame Shakespeare for an utterance of his character, why should we attribute a character's dialogue in Mahabharata on Vyasa?

 

Now, if Mahabharata is Itihasa-Kavya, we have at least two prospects here -

1) being Itihasa, it has to have a Political fact

2) being Kavya, it must then be guising some Political facts in Metaphor

 

Metaphor thus becomes the instrument/weapon of both Rishi-Kavi Vyasa and Character-Vyasa (or Political Vyasa ... because Mahabharata is Vyasa's autobiography too ... and he himself is one of his characters ... )

 

In short - A Political event may be hidden in Metaphor for the purpose of both Kavya and Politics.

            Take for example, "Draupadi is born of Agni."

            Now, why should we take it literally? If she is REALLY born of Agni, does that actually glorify her? I don't think so. A Human Being, biologically Human Being, attaining the status of Goddess - Devi - by her merit ... isn't there more glory in this? I would prefer this. So, I reject that Draupadi is born of Agni.

            The rejection brings a problem. Does Vyasa lie then? A poet - Kavi - has the responsibility to tell Truth, isn't it?

            The problem of course does not arise if we take Mahabharata as Itihasa-Kavya... that is, Vyasa is telling us the Truth but through Metaphor.

            To me, that explains Draupadi's birth. To find the Metaphoric significance of Agni, I have to go back to the Original Agni ... that is to the Vedas. And there we meet Agni in several forms. We have the Agni that is Sex or Sexual Heat. So, if Vyasa says "Draupadi is born of Agni," he is neither lying (Kavi cannot do so) nor he is directly telling us the Truth (Ambiguity thy name is Politics! .. and here we have the Political Vyasa!)

 

With this intro, let me now address some queries raised ...

 

@ Diala

I have not yet finalized the part 2 of 'Draupadi single garment' ... it is still in draft stage. Hope to polish it soon and publish.

See ... in Politics, as every Politician knows, Sympathy of Mass is a great Power ... Draupadi in single garment (ekavastra adhoniivii rodamana rajasvala) insulted by Kauravas in open Sabha ... wont that have greater Political Power?

            We know, there were two rounds of Dice Game ... and the two rounds happened with quite some time-gap. Even if we take it that Draupadi was ekavastra and menstruating during the first round of Dice Game (actually that is an impossibility, because in those days, Dice Game was part of Rajasuya Yajna ... and the wife had to be present beside her husband in any Yajna Ritual ... so, if Draupadi had been really menstruating, the Dice Game could not have commenced, and had to wait until her period was over), how is it possible that she was still menstruating while after the second round, the Pandavas were leaving for forest exile? Nowhere Vyasa says that there was 1 month intervention between the two rounds of Dice Game. Just for the sake of believing this, do we have to believe that Draupadi menstruated twice a month?

            Therefore, the matter of Draupadi being ekavastra must have a Political purpose ... and Vyasa uses that for Kavya too ... because Blood and disheveled hair have the Metaphoric significance of Kala-Time and Destruction. Draupadi is Krishna ... Black ... another link with Kala-Time ...

            Now, some feminist might bash me here for stating these ... (I have already found such statement against me in this forum) ... And my humble questions to them are -

i) Do we need a menstruating Draupadi Only to sympathize for her for all the insults and verbal assaults she suffered in Kuru Sabha? If she had not been menstruating, do we lose the admiration and sympathy for her? Well, at least I do not ...

ii) To believe that Draupadi was not menstruating but it was her Performance, would mean that Draupadi had a very prominent Political role ... Political Strategy ... Ka-Buddhi ...

            Now, if Draupadi is a Political person, do we lose admiration and sympathy for her? Well, at least, I do not ... my respect for her escalates owing to that ... because she had the Common Sense to use the Power of Sympathy when all her husbands miserably failed her ...

            Every Man and Woman knows that at times, Vulnerability can be the greatest Power ... And to use that Power as an Upaya (Strategy/Policy) for the sake of Survival needs great presence of Mind and Common Sense.

 

@ AnuMP

You have asked: "But what purpose do you think would he have had in mind to keep them tucked away till their mid teens?"

            See, a War is also War of Myth ... Kurukhetra War was as much a physical war as much Political and therefore, War of Myths.

            Full-grown persons born of Agni ... What other Myth could have greater impact on Mass Psyche? Drupada had to fight against powerful Myths like Bhishma with Iccha Mrtyu and born of Ganga, Ashvatthama as Immortal, Drona born of vessel and not in any woman's womb, Krpa born on grass and not in woman's womb ...

            So, Dhrshadyumna and Draupadi born of Agni was Drupada's own counter-Myth against those powerful Kuru-Myths ...

 

@ Hello Shindes

I am sorry I could not finish that ... my write-up is still at nascent stage ... hope to resurrect it from hard disk soon ...

 

@ Debashree

Thank you for your kind words ...

 

Regards

indrajit

 

Edited by indraajeet - 9 years ago

Sir thanks for your reply You've summed up beautifully!

regarding draupadi in dyuta : "rodamana rajasvalaa aagatum panchali " was a hint to her ?

@ Maverick_me

Sure ...

While reading the Draupadi-Disrobing episode here, the following narrative is frequently overlooked:

"Yudhishthira , however, hearing of Duryodhana's intentions, sent a trusted messenger unto Draupadi, directing that although she was attired in one piece of cloth with her navel itself exposed, in consequence of her season having come, she should come before her father-in-law weeping bitterly. And that intelligent messenger, O king, having gone to Draupadi's abode with speed, informed her of the intentions of Yudhishthira."

            It clearly suggests that Draupadi's coming to the Sabhaa in the state of ekavastraa adhoniivii rodamaanaa rajasvalaa' was preplanned. In fact, she was actually executing Yudhishthira's Kuuta-Kaushala on her own merit.

It was indeed a master strategy, and Draupadi salvaged her husbands by her Performance of vulnerability that evoked sympathy-wave among the subjects and alienated the powerful Braahmanas from the Kurus.The powerful Brahmanas did not perform Agnihotra that day. It is understandable why Dhritarashtra's good sense returned ... sheer pressure of public opinion against him and his son ... and Dhrita was forced to grant boons to Draupadi ...

It is the sympathy wave in favour of opponent that every ruler fears.

Shakespeare's Macbeth hesitates to murder King Duncan for similar fear -

"...his virtues / Will plead like angels, trumpet-tongued, against  / The deep damnation of his taking-off; /And pity, like a naked new-born babe, / Striding the blast, or heaven's cherubins, horsed / Upon the sightless couriers of the air, / Shall blow the horrid deed in every eye, / That tears shall drown the wind." (Macbeth: Act 1, Scene 7; Line-16-25)

regards
Indrajit Edited by indraajeet - 9 years ago

Thank you Prof.for the response Edited by AnuMP - 9 years ago

@ AnuMP

 

"What your thoughts on the reasons for Panchali's insistence on the need for war? Purely for revenge? We have been having a bit of an argument about it elsewhere on IF"

 

Who says Draupadi was all-revenge? I can safely say this is a Patriarchal ploy to portray her thus. She was never a nagging wife for war. It was only when her husbands showed hesitation to do Kshatriya-duty that she invoked Manyu (Anger/Wrath) in them. The Giita has the same purpose.

 

Isn't this also a Strategy of Common Sense? Don't we use such Strategy in our everyday life? Doesn't a football coach do it on the field? We call that VOCAL-TONIC. And remember, Draupadi has prominent Vaak-aspect - and Vaak-Danda is also a very effective machine.

 

In fact, I know no merciful woman like Draupadi.

 

Can you name a Mother who can pardon the killer of her all sons? Well, Draupadii pardoned Ashwatthama ... and that too not long after the slaughter. And Draupadi pardoned Kripacharya too. Otherwise Kripacharya could not have been re-appointed as child Parikshit's astra-Guru. If Draupadi did not give her consent, could it have been possible?

 

If Draupadi occasionally burst out into vengeance, that is only her Human Essence. Vyasa portrays her as a great woman ... not Goddess. Perhaps, that is even better. Most often, Goddesses are more vengeful.

 

I think it is time we need to discard another misconception. Mahabharata is not about War only ... it is as much, perhaps more, about Internal War - that is, search for the meaning of Dharma.

 

The Kuru-Pandava War Narrative is only about 25% of Mahabharata. The rest 75% is all about discourses. Could Vyaasa compose Mahabhaarata thus if he had only War in mind?

"Am afraid the idea that Yudhishtira told her to come to the sabha minimally clad is extremely distasteful"

- "distasteful' - YES! But when everything is at stake, 'distasteful' seems 'tasty.' Otherwise, how could Visvamitra chew, swallow and digest dog-meat? He had to put away his 'sanskara' and conditioned-mind for that. In Mahabharata this is called APADDHARMA ... which is an indispensable part of DHARMA.

 

Regards

indrajit

Edited by indraajeet - 9 years ago

Thank you. I am going to bookmark your answer and point all my IF friends to it👏. I have been trying to make some sense of the difference between her words and her actions for some time now

1] I disagree with this response : ' Even if we take it that Draupadi was ekavastra and menstruating during the first round of Dice Game (actually that is an impossibility, because in those days, Dice Game was part of Rajasuya Yajna ... '

Hello Mr. Bandyopadhyay, I am glad to meet you here!

I have read some of your articles, the matter I love the most is your logical effort to defend Yudhishthir in many cases like Mahaprashthanik Parva, Draupadi sharing and even in the staking part. It is sad that most of readers do not understand the original spiritual significances of Mahabharat and always blame a pious person like Yudhishthir. I respect you for taking the effort of clearing the misconceptions people often raise against him! In your article "Fall of Draupadi and the Pandavas: Upanishadic Significance" you presented the whole thing so logically that it has really overwhelmed me! I agree with each word of this article! The Pandava Purusha theory indeed is a treat for a Pandava fan like me, and I thank you for this! Also I loved your "Yudhishthira and Krishna: Indra & Vishnu on One Chariot" to the core, I always cherish the divine relationship of Krishna and Yudhishthir in the epic, and you have successfully shown that they really are a divine pair!

Also you have justified that Draupadi was never a victim of polyandrous marriage in another article, which exactly says the thought of my mind! I always believe that it was Draupadi who wanted the Pandavas as her lords, as she had the recollection of her past birth.

I have few questions to you; will feel obliged if you kindly respond to them!

Currently I am researching on the dice game thing, so naturally my first question is: when will you publish the next part of the article "Mahabharata: Draupadi's Single Garment,
and Disrobing in Dice Game Sabha"? I have read the first part and am eager to know what your points are to show that the whole staking thing was absurd. Actually, this is the activity based on which Yudhishthir and other Pandavas are very brutally bashed out, so I myself am trying to find out some logic in their defense. I believe that there are some loopholes which show us that Yudhishthir was not that much guilty in which amount we generally think, so I will be grateful to you if you kindly give me at least some hints on the staking part with which my thought process can develop! Also, were the Pandavas weaponless at that time? What is your opinion in this regard?

 

@ shindes

"Dice game did not happen as part of Rajsuya yagnaPrashar, it happened much later at Hastinapura. And  Parshati, wife of Drupad was also not part of his Putra-kameshti yagna ...yet it commenced and continued in her absence."

 

- True ... what you say is as per the Text ... though I do not agree with "much later." Yudhi had a clear motive of taking over Hastinaapura ... and he confesses that in Vana Parvan. That is why, I consider the Dice Game as extension of Raajasuya.

 

2] Secondly, 'Agni' heat cannot be reduced barely to sexual heat. I interpret Draupadi's Agni as the 'purifying' fire and the sacrificial yagna fire.

 

-          True again! But Yajna and Sacrificial Fire are also Metaphors of Sex in Vedas. Since Draupadii is born of normal biological Sex, yet it had to be hidden for Political motive, what other Metaphor than Agni would have suited better?

 

 

    @ Urmila11

YES, Human-staking at that Dice Game is a simple absurdity.

 

In support of this, for now, I am providing you a clue from Manu-Samhita..

 

No human-staking was possible in that Dice Game, because Yudhi-Duryodhana played dyuuta, and according to Manu Samhita:

"When inanimate (things) are used (for staking money on them), that is called among men gambling (dyuuta), when animate beings are used (for the same purpose), one must know that to be betting (samaahvaya).

apraaniibhir yat kriyate tal loke dyuutam ucyate /

 praaniibhih kriyate yas tu sa vijneyah samaahvayah // (Mn_9.223)

Since the Kuru-Pandavas played Dyuuta, Draupadi could not have been staked... nor any of the brothers.

 

That Yudhi staked his brothers and wife was just a Political Propaganda of the Kuru-camp to demean Yudhi and prove to the mass that he was inept as a Ruler. Vyaasa retains that as it is ... that is his greatness as Kavi ...

 

Regards

Indrajit

Thank you Sir for that clue. Yes I also know this verse from Manu Samhita, also we can expect that Yudhi knew the Rig Veda's gambler's lament which clearly tells us that gambling is adharma, so how can a person like Yudhi violate that rule said by Veda? We know that he himself told Yaksha that knowledge of Vedas is ultimate for him. I believe that there must be some loopholes in the description in dyuta sabha and if we can find them out, then we can see the original character of Yudhi.