Bharat or Lakshman:who was more loving to Ram?

Posted: 2010-12-19T04:01:28Z
Hi all the Mytho-devotees! I'm opening this thread to discuss about the famous brotherly love of our Ramayan. We all know that both Bharat & Lakshman was unparallel devotee of lord Ram, & both teaches us the glorious lesson of love. Both had to suffer great pain for their beloved elder brother, both of the princes sacrificed the royal belongings to serve Ram. But who was greater in this brotherly affection to lord Ram? 
If you ask me, I'll be really confusedConfusedConfusedConfused
both of them are very dear to me, I love them veryyyyyyyyyyyy much.
Bharat conquared Ram only with his immense love. The lord couldn't ignore his earnest prayer. He had to keep the promise of returning Ayodhya at the right time & he had to give his paduka to him.
but Lakshman is also an admirable charecter. His love was quite silent, but he gurded Ram so affectionately that the lord had to say,"you are serving me as a son, & are protecting me as a father"!
So friends! whom do you think greater? 
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Posted: 2010-12-19T15:32:13Z

Nice thread!

But like you said, it's an impossible choice, and I also think it is unfair to compare Bharat and Lakshman and claim one's love as greater, because both of them sacrificed their entire life and breath for Ram's happiness. Bharat, though he was practically given the throne of Ayodhya on a golden platter, he was so dedicated to adhering to his duty and Dharma that the prospect of becoming King did not please him at all. In fact, the thought itself made him shrivel up with disgust. Bharat was truly one of the most noble souls of Ramayan.
As for Lakshman, he was no less in greatness. He gave up his freedom to serve Ram and Sita all 14 years of the vanvaas. He gave up his sleep and suffered the thorns and hardships of forest life. He lived the life of a servant and served his brother dutifully and happily. In fact, he derived happiness from his service.
So we cannot compare Bharat and Lakshman. Both were extremely great souls, that it would be unfair and also wrong to say one was better.
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Posted: 2010-12-20T23:51:02Z
Oh come on Janaki. After creating Ram or Shyam - pick one poll, you write like this!!!! Now I will have to tell Urmila to create the poll for the same topic without multiple choice allowed specially for you.Big smile Pick one compulsorily. Lolzzzzzz. Anyway, j/k. Sorry. j/t (Just teasing LOL). You are absolutely right. And the first post itself by Urmila is so very well compiled in all dimensions. But I also will write something about both what I had written in Orkut thread. The question there was: "Who was greater in character - Lakshman or Bharat?" I paste my reply of Orkut here. I think the question here is different but still not much different and hence reader can take out the appropriate part of my posts so at the moment I am not editing them.

I think a younger brother needs to obey the elder brother all the time as per the virtue principles of the older society of that era (Shaastra still remains the same but the society culture has changed) with the premise that eldest brother is always the most knowledgeable (And that was the truth in case of Shri Ram). Both the brothers equally did that well always. Bharat used to be stubborn & arguing at times (Balhath) at few critical occasions and Lakshman used to be questioning/opposing at times whenever he was not agreeing to or convinced with Shri Ram's approach (Different thinking or nature). But both eventually surrendered and for both Shri Ram was supreme and greatest relation above all. Bharat was forced to learn the art of living for Shri Ram without Shri Ram as he had the practice of the same living in Nainihaal for some days. Lakshman never ever lived without Shri Ram and he didn't have to as per Dashrath's promise. So both of them played their respective roles perfectly well. As far as nature is concerned, I think Bharat's nature was closer to that of Shri Ram as Bharat was mild (still childlike innocent during Chitrakoot episode) and Lakshman was hasty, rude/rough/childlike at times & aggressive. Personally, I have more LOVE for Lakshman than Bharat and more RESPECT for Bharat than Lakshman.

And I even feel that it would not be appropriate to attach to them the tag of 'IDEAL BROTHERS' because they were not great brothers by virtue of sense of duty but purely because of sense of love or devotion. They were something other than or above brotherhood. If we talk about duty of a younger brother, it is not greater than duty of a son when different social role duties contradict. So Lakshman should never have lifted the bow against Dashrath without thinking anything or shouldn't have put forward any stubborn condition of not stopping him in Ayodhya before Sumitra saying anything. Ramji also had to remind him twice that he was opposing their king which is wrong (Once Dashrath and once Bharat). Similarly, Bharat might not respect Keikei any further but he wouldn't have abused her but for his innocent love for Shri Ram. And he wouldn't have thought of not keeping the promise of father (And that duty of his Shri Ram had to remind him to balance his mind). And he wouldn't have been stubborn in his innocent noble demand against Gurudev and Kaushalya. So I would say that their soul & conscience from the very beginning disregarded every other social relations & therefore their child ego disregarded formal shaastra dharm straight away catching its essence of bowing down to supreme (They were just the needed formalities for them in this world - saare naate Ram ke maniyat). Dashrath was their father only because he was also father of Shri Ram and not otherwise. Their deep down soul or conscience had the consciousness of this secret. And right from the childhood, they were together. In Gurukul, Shri Ram only nurtured them like mother & father (surprisingly being of same age but because of the inherent born maturity). So for them, Shri Ram was not just elder brother. Pita, Mata, Sakha, Guru, God - everything. So each & every deed what they did can't be interpreted to be younger brother's duty as Shri Ram says to Lakshman before accepting Vibhishan.

Relevant dialogs

Ram to Lakshman in Chitrakoot: Kabhi kabhi aankhon se dekha hua bhi satya nahi hota. Raajmad ka pramaad saadhaaran maanav ko ho sakta hai. Indra jaise devtaa ko bhi ho sakta hai. Parantu Bharat ka sthaan devtaaon se bhi uncha hai. Woh ek mahamaanav ke roop me mahaantaa ki pariseema hai. Jis prakaar khataai ki ek boond se ksheer saagar ka doodh nahi phat sakta; usi parkaar Ayodhya to kya, trilok ka raajya bhi Bharat ko de diya jaay, to bhi use raajmad nahi ho sakta........Aur yadi tumhe raajya ki laalsaa hai, to mai tumhari shapath kha kar kehta hun Lakshman. Mere ek sanket maatra se Bharat woh raajya tumhe de dega. (Slightly losing cool over here and hurt by Lakshman's feelings for Bharat.) 

Now last statement & tone of Ramji has to be taken to be a motivating purposeful statement to shape Lakshman's behaviour and thinking desirably since Ramji can't be ignorant about Lakshman's selflessness. He can also never think about Lakshman to be greedy but he can only deliberately pretend that to make him realize what mistake he was making in misunderstanding Bharat.

Lakshman to Ram in Panchvati:
Bharat bhaiya ke gun to anant hai bhaiya. Unhe wahi pehchaan sakta hai, jo saagar ki leheren gin sakta ho.

Ram to Lakshman while deciding to give shelter to Vibhishan
: Lakshman aur Bharat jaise bhai is sansaar me to kya, teeno lokon me durlabh hai. Atah unke maapdand se sabko maapna uchit nahi hai. 

Vibhishan to Kumbhkarna on the battlefield:
Bharat aur Lakshman ke charan chinhon par chalne ke liye, Shri Ram jaisa Maryaadaa Purushottam bhai bhi hona chaahiye.

Edited by ShivangBuch - 2010-12-22T07:00:02Z
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Posted: 2010-12-22T05:19:28Z
Wonderful explanations! I'm really moved, Bhaiyya! Day Dreaming
It's true that most of the readers of Ramayan respects Bharat but loves Lakshman. I also do it.
both loved Ram equally. both are oceans of love & devotion. but the two loves are of two different types. that two types differs so much, that it make me somtimes to think about that question that who's love is greater.
Bharat's love is not seen in the Balkand. that chapter shows the relation between Bharat & Satrughna, & for the other side, Ram & Lakshman is stronger than Ram & Bharat. even when he had to leave Ayodhya for the journy to his Nainihaal, then also he didn't show any emotions about the coming seperation from Ram. he arises at that time when Ram was banished by his mother's cruelty. then we find his immense brotherly love which is too powerful to change even "vidhi ka vidhan" as told by Bashistha. really, seeing that affection & goodwill of Bharat, we start to think that the truthfulness of Ram may be dethroned by this love.
with this devotion, when he ruled Ayodhya as a saint, he seems so admirable that I think he is the real God. we have to bow near this unmeasurable purity.
So that is our Bharat. loving, kind, pure---- the embodiment of sacrifiece. 
Lakshman's love is different. it's a silent love but not less than Bharat. Bharat used to express his feelings to Ram, but Lakshman didn't. Lakshman is the another life of Ram from the early childhood. but we haven't heard any word from him before the news of exile in Ayodhyakand (as per Valmiki Ramayan). when he spoke first, he was rude & harse to Dasharath & Bharat. but this rudeness is also nothing but the another expression of his love.
he is not as emotional as Bharat. Bharat pleaded for Ram's "charan paduka", but Lakshman couldn't pleade for anything. this is the reason for which he was wnable to protect Sita from Agnipariksha or exile in Uttarkand, where he should protest at least, I think.
Bharat is like a God of love. he always attructs our hearts towards his unlimited noble virtues. this type of love is really very rare, so it move us so much. but we should not forget Lakshman. his silent love is very naturally portrayed by Valmiki. it seems that it is very easy for him to live such a painful life. his love showered upon Ram as natural as the droplets of rain, as the rays of Sun. but it can't express its depth. So we'll surely worship the God, but will never ignore the drops of rain who is always nourishing our life.
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Posted: 2010-12-22T07:34:09Z
Beautiful. Awesome Semanti. Clap Ocean of knowledge. I have nothing much to add but to agree word to word with what you said apart from acknowledging that the source references added to my knowledge or understanding of the epic beyond the serial. I saw the scene of Bharat going to nainihaal parting with Ramji, Lakshman getting angry on Dashrath, Bharat getting angry on Keikei and pleading in front of Kaushalya and Vashisth. I have also read parts of VR and RCM but to a very limited extent  to the extent of understanding the choupais and dohas covered in the serial and to give reference of dialogs of scenes I have posted. I would love to read both in future whenever I can get a chance for that. Both of them are top most in my priority. Even though I am not that fond of reading in general like you or Lola or Janaki but reading anything spiritual is a different thing. I am more thinker than the reader and hence I love Bhagwad Geeta the most.Smile But we are incomplete as a devotee I feel until we read both VR and RCM.

Just to extend your post a bit, I would say only that much that the love of both brothers were equal but just the natural approaches were different. One all the time attached together to serve and other one ready to serve all the time staying with or away. It is naturally like Sheshnaag and Sudarshan chakra. One has to be all the time behind Lord to give him the shelter (CHHATRA) except when the Lord is not on his sheshshaiyaa but acting to kill demons himself. And other one is ever ready to come and serve whenever called for and can also serve by staying away (had to be in fact being an ASTRA). Also Lord's nature is of dharmasansthaapan and Sudarshan does precisely the same very act so probably that's why Bharat's characteristics were closer to those of Ram in maintaining/fulfilling/obeying dharma and supremacy of HIS than Lakshman's characteristics when the latter had to do more of a complementary role being beside always and to make sure HE faces no trouble and for that taking all the burden of struggles on his head. I have read about Kaartiveerya Arjun being the incarnation of Sudarshan but haven't read about Bharat. Source is just the serial for me but anyhow this can still work as a metaphor or example to understand what I mean to say.
Edited by ShivangBuch - 2010-12-22T07:38:37Z
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Posted: 2010-12-22T09:03:09Z
Originally posted by ShivangBuch

Oh come on Janaki. After creating Ram or Shyam - pick one poll, you write like this!!!! Now I will have to tell Urmila to create the poll for the same topic without multiple choice allowed specially for you.Big smile Pick one compulsorily. Lolzzzzzz. Anyway, j/k. Sorry. j/t (Just teasing LOL).

Haha, you got me there, Shivang!ROFL But see, Ram and Shyam are from the same Vishnu Bhagwan only, while Lakshman and Bharat are different, na?WinkLOL One is the incarnation of Sudarshan Chakra while the other Sesh Naag, so they are different people, so choosing one is hard.WinkLOL Lols, but you are right, it is as hard choosing between them as it is for Ram and Shyam.
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Posted: 2010-12-22T22:14:30Z

Lol. Yes yes. I got you again. But seriously these threads are so much interesting to share the views. Yeah yeah I can understand your point. Vishnu won't feel bad because both forms are of his.Big smile An actor won't feel bad if you compare his two roles in two movies saying that one role is your more favourite than the other. Over here one is Shesh and one is Sudarshan. Having said that, both are devotees and both love each other also and devotees love devotees. So it would still be fine.SmileWink


Just to write a bit further, I would say that Lakshman, as per the serial, still questioned or opposed for a while Agnipariksha. And Sitatyag should/could have been equally opposed by Bharat also if by Lakshman. I think both were silent because both had faith that if Ramji was doing that, it must be right and appropriate. Being devotees, they could leave it upto Ram-Sita to wait & watch their leela on the earth. Lord Hanumanji himself was observer, so I think it is alright with Lakshman-Bharat also over here.

And regarding that LOVE and RESPECT issue found in general, I think, when we are feeling love for Lakshman, Bharat inside us become alive and active and when we are feeling respect for Bharat, it happens so because Lakshman in us become active at that time. That's why probably those feelings in us are also different.
Edited by ShivangBuch - 2010-12-22T22:17:23Z
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Posted: 2010-12-23T07:24:14Z
Dear friends!
I like to highlight another point of view. I know that Bharat was the incarnation of the Sudarsan Chakra & Lakshman was of Seshnaag, but I only want to say that it was written in the RCM only (as per my knowledge) & it is the consideration of Tulsidasji. In the main Ramayan written by Valmiki, all the four brothers were the incarnations of Vishnu. Valmiki described Ram as the half of lord Vishnu, Lakshman as one-fourth & both of Bharat & Shatrughna as one-eighth of Vishnu. Thus in VR, lord Vishnu took incarnation as the four sons of Dashrath. the idea of considering Ram as the whole Vishnu is probably of Tulsidasji's own (perhaps he didn't want to break the lord) as in any other related books I haven't found this idea till now. I can only say that even in "Raghubangsam" of Mahakabi Kalidas & in Bengali Ramayan of Mahakabi Krittibas, both Bharat & Lakshman were the parts of Vishnu.
@ Shivang-Bhaiyya,
Excellent explanation again. I'm enjoying so much Big smile
you have beautifully pointed out the significance of Bharat & Lakshman as Vishnu's Astra & Chhatra . I started to think that this is the probable reason which came in Tulsidasji's mind & so he wrote them as incarnation of Chakra & Seshnaag. but it is not written in our ancient epic (VR) as I told above.
Another thing I like to say. when we discussing about Ramayan, I prefer to forget that Ram is lord Vishnu & to consider him as human being, as he is a Maha-manav & didn't express himself as God in the human incarnation (unlike Shri Krishna). So when I thaught about the sacred love & sacrifice of Bharat & Lakshman, I always forget that it might be the devotion of devotee towards God, but think them only as loving brothers. in fact Valmiki who narreted the four brothers as parts of Visnu, also forgot that & described all of them as Maha-manav. our country accepted that human beings with huge reverance & later India started to worship them as God. I don't think that the glory of God is reduced if we consider them as human. Rabindranath Tagore said, "In Ramayan, God has not reduced himself to human, but human has raised himself as God." I think that's true. if we can love each other as Bharat & Lakshman loved Ram, we'll also be raised to the level of God.
I've told several unrelated words, but my intention was to extend your views where you said that both of the two brothers remained silent to see the leela of Ram-Sita on the earth. if we consider all of the incidents of Ramayan as leela of God, then there is no the glory of that great sacrifices. God's sacrifice, God's sorrow can't hurt us as a man's cry can. this is just my opinion. 
Edited by Urmila11 - 2010-12-25T19:07:38Z
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