Mela Suron Ka Aata Hai (Part 1)

Friends, this is part 2 of my Carnatic write up.

Recap: In Carnatic music, we have sixteen names based on twelve notes. USING HINDUSTANI TERMINOLOGY, the notes are

S

R1 = komal re

R2 = G1 = shuddha re, "ati komal ga"

R3 = G2 = "tivra re", komal ga

G3 = shuddha ga

M1 = shuddha ma

M2 = tivra ma

P

D1 = komal dha

D2 = N1 = shuddha dha, "ati komal ni"

D3 = N2 = "tivra dha", komal ni

N3 = shuddha ni

Hence, we have sixteen notes. However, the Carnatic system doesn't use Hindustani terminology. Friends, please note that things will get very confusing, because one words can mean different things in different paddhatis of singing.

Here is the sargam using CARNATIC TERMINOLOGY.

S = Sadjamam (Tonic)

R 1 = Suddha Risabham (Lowest Ri)

R 2 = Catusruti Risabham (Fourth microtone Ri) same as G 1

R 3 = Satasruti Risabam (Highest microtone Ri) same as G 2

G 1 = Suddha Gandharam (Lowest Ga) same as R 2

G 2 = Sadharana Gandharam (Ordinary Ga) same as R 3

G 3 = Antara Gandharam (Cadenced Ga)

M 1 = Suddha Madhayamam (Lowest ma)

M 2 = Prati Madhyamam (Leader of the ma)

P = Pancham (Fifth or Pa)

D 1 = Suddha Dhaivatam (Lowest Dha)

D 2 = Catusruti Dhaivatam (Fourth microtone Dha) same as N 1

D 3 = Satasruti Dhaivatam (Highest microtone Dha) same as N 2

N 1 = Suddha Nisadam (Lowest Ni) same as D 2

N 2 = Kaisiki Nisadam (Middle Ni) same as D 3

N 3 = Kakali Nisadam (Highest Ni)

Confusing?? 😆 This is not as easy as Hindustani where a note was shuddha, komal, or tivra. For instance, R2 is Catusruti Rsabham, while G2 is Antara Gandharam. There is no real pattern. Friends, memorization is the key. One tip: shuddha in Hindustani means "pure note." Shuddha in Carnatic music means "flattest version of the note."

Theoretically speaking, when making ragams in South Indian music, we have very unsual forms. If we were to use the lowest form of each note, then we get this scale:

S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'

This LOOKS right. Why? Because all seven swars are here. If you have a keyboard, please play these. If you don't, convert these to Hindustani notation.

This yields:

S r R m P d D S': Hindustani music would reject this scale, because r R and d D chromatic forms are not allowed. But Carnatic music finds this acceptable. Since this is acceptable, our possibilities of ragas increase.

Let's do some math to find the number of ragas. Let's divide the seven swars into two sections: The purvanga and the uttaranga: The purvanga is the lower half of the raga and the uttaranga is the upper half of the raga. We are going to cut the raga in half through MA. Here are the possible purvangas and uttarangas formed.

PURVANGA UTTARANGA

1A : S R1 G1 1B: D1 N1 S'

2A: S R1 G2 2B: D1 N2 S'

3A: S R1 G3 3B: D1 N3 S'

4A: S R2 G2 4B: D2 N2 S'

5A: S R2 G3 5B: D2 N3 S'

6A: S R3 G3 6B: D3 N3 S'

Before we move on, let's clarify one fact that notes like S R3 G1 are incorect. If you translate this to Hindustani, this becomes S g R. This reduces the value of Ga and Re. Same thing with S R3 G2: translates to S g g, again, demoralizes the value of the Re and Ga. Re and Ga are not simply notes, they are functions.

Since there are six possible purvangas and six possible uttarangas, the total number of possibilites are 6*6 = 36 ragas with shuddha ma. Remember, when defined the purvanga and uttaranga, we excluded ma. Therefore, we have to include the fact that there are 2 Mas (shuddha OR prati).

36*2 (because of two Mas) = 72 possible Carnatic scales.

These scales are known as melakarta or mela. These are equivalent to the Hindustani thaat.

Before I type another post, friends, please take a moment and appreciate the scientific nature of Carnatic music. There are 72 scales proven in Carnatic, while there are 10 scales accepted by most in Hindustani music.

Thank you sir, have you done any reasearch in music, got some degrees? You are very knowledgable.

Wow!! No wonder Carnatic music seems so difficult!! That is great reading material.

front page needs classing up so, bumping this...

One question - I noticed there are 3 possible Ni's. I realize this does not
necessarily correspond to frequency, but, for the purposes of my question.

If S is middle C, Pa is G and S' is Higher C - In that case:
would N1 correspond to A, N2 to Bflat and N3 to B?

Also another Q - what is 'cadenced ga'?

When i wrote & compared,i understood,oh god,too confusing.Tell me Sir,r tivra ma & prati madhyam the same thing or they have some difference?

plz reply me sir.😛

Originally posted by: kishore_bhakta

Friends, this is part 2 of my Carnatic write up.

Recap: In Carnatic music, we have sixteen names based on twelve notes. USING HINDUSTANI TERMINOLOGY, the notes are

S

R1 = komal re

R2 = G1 = shuddha re, "ati komal ga"

R3 = G2 = "tivra re", komal ga

G3 = shuddha ga

M1 = shuddha ma

M2 = tivra ma

P

D1 = komal dha

D2 = N1 = shuddha dha, "ati komal ni"

D3 = N2 = "tivra dha", komal ni

N3 = shuddha ni

Hence, we have sixteen notes. However, the Carnatic system doesn't use Hindustani terminology. Friends, please note that things will get very confusing, because one words can mean different things in different paddhatis of singing.

Here is the sargam using CARNATIC TERMINOLOGY.

S = Sadjamam (Tonic)

R 1 = Suddha Risabham (Lowest Ri)

R 2 = Catusruti Risabham (Fourth microtone Ri) same as G 1

R 3 = Satasruti Risabam (Highest microtone Ri) same as G 2

G 1 = Suddha Gandharam (Lowest Ga) same as R 2

G 2 = Sadharana Gandharam (Ordinary Ga) same as R 3

G 3 = Antara Gandharam (Cadenced Ga)

M 1 = Suddha Madhayamam (Lowest ma)

M 2 = Prati Madhyamam (Leader of the ma)

P = Pancham (Fifth or Pa)

D 1 = Suddha Dhaivatam (Lowest Dha)

D 2 = Catusruti Dhaivatam (Fourth microtone Dha) same as N 1

D 3 = Satasruti Dhaivatam (Highest microtone Dha) same as N 2

N 1 = Suddha Nisadam (Lowest Ni) same as D 2

N 2 = Kaisiki Nisadam (Middle Ni) same as D 3

N 3 = Kakali Nisadam (Highest Ni)

Confusing?? 😆 This is not as easy as Hindustani where a note was shuddha, komal, or tivra. For instance, R2 is Catusruti Rsabham, while G2 is Antara Gandharam. There is no real pattern. Friends, memorization is the key. One tip: shuddha in Hindustani means "pure note." Shuddha in Carnatic music means "flattest version of the note."

Theoretically speaking, when making ragams in South Indian music, we have very unsual forms. If we were to use the lowest form of each note, then we get this scale:

S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'

This LOOKS right. Why? Because all seven swars are here. If you have a keyboard, please play these. If you don't, convert these to Hindustani notation.

This yields:

S r R m P d D S': Hindustani music would reject this scale, because r R and d D chromatic forms are not allowed. But Carnatic music finds this acceptable. Since this is acceptable, our possibilities of ragas increase.

Let's do some math to find the number of ragas. Let's divide the seven swars into two sections: The purvanga and the uttaranga: The purvanga is the lower half of the raga and the uttaranga is the upper half of the raga. We are going to cut the raga in half through MA. Here are the possible purvangas and uttarangas formed.

PURVANGA UTTARANGA

1A : S R1 G1 1B: D1 N1 S'

2A: S R1 G2 2B: D1 N2 S'

3A: S R1 G3 3B: D1 N3 S'

4A: S R2 G2 4B: D2 N2 S'

5A: S R2 G3 5B: D2 N3 S'

6A: S R3 G3 6B: D3 N3 S'

Before we move on, let's clarify one fact that notes like S R3 G1 are incorect. If you translate this to Hindustani, this becomes S g R. This reduces the value of Ga and Re. Same thing with S R3 G2: translates to S g g, again, demoralizes the value of the Re and Ga. Re and Ga are not simply notes, they are functions.

Since there are six possible purvangas and six possible uttarangas, the total number of possibilites are 6*6 = 36 ragas with shuddha ma. Remember, when defined the purvanga and uttaranga, we excluded ma. Therefore, we have to include the fact that there are 2 Mas (shuddha OR prati).

36*2 (because of two Mas) = 72 possible Carnatic scales.

These scales are known as melakarta or mela. These are equivalent to the Hindustani thaat.

Before I type another post, friends, please take a moment and appreciate the scientific nature of Carnatic music. There are 72 scales proven in Carnatic, while there are 10 scales accepted by most in Hindustani music.

Lots of question on Carnatic music! 😊

Before I start answering, let me just let you know that my study of the Carnatic system took place in early 2004. I was very confused about how things worked, because the sixteen note was too difficult to understand. It was something by God's grace that broke the barrier and was able to understand and apppreciate the major difference between North and South Indian music. To those who have studied Carnatic music in this forum, I humbly salute you. 👏

Here are some questions and some answers

sangeetaa asked:
"I noticed there are 3 possible Ni's. I realize this does not necessarily correspond to frequency, but, for the purposes of my question.

If S is middle C, Pa is G and S' is Higher C - In that case: would N1 correspond to A, N2 to Bflat and N3 to B?"

Answer:
You analogy is correct. If you Sa = C, Pa = G, then..
N1 = A
N2 = Bb
N3 = B

In the same example, if you were to examine the three dhas, then
D1 = Ab
D2 = A
D3 = Bb

You can see here D2 = N1 and D3 = N2. They have the same frequency value, but their role in the saptak is different. Dha (dhaivata)'s function in any sargam is to be the sixth note. Ni (Nisada)'s function in any sargam is to be the seventh note. Even there is a raga like Hansadhwani (lacking a Dha) or Bhupali (lacking a Ni), the role that dha and ni shares is the same, whether its in or not.

For those who have studied Western music, this idea should not be anything new. You know how the note D flat, for example, can be referred to as C sharp. Sometimes in certain musical contexts, they'll write B sharp sharp (B+ 1 semitone + 1 semitone) B -> C -> C sharp. In the same manner, Carnatic music is like that.

"Antara Gandharam" literally translates to that. Antara Ga is the same as Shuddha Ga in Hindustani music. If Sa = C, then G3 is E.

ruby_bindaas_24 wrote: "Tell me Sir,r tivra ma & prati madhyam the same thing or they have some difference?"

They are the same. Remember, Carnatic has their own notation and Hindustani has their. They are not interchangeable. Remember, in Hindustani "shuddha swar" means the seven notes in original pure form (S R G m P D N S'). In Carnatic, "shuddha swar" means the lowest form of the note possible (S R1 G1 M1 P D1 N1 S'). This translates to S r R m P d D S' in Hindustani.

In analogy form:
Tivra Madhyama : Hindustani :: Prati Madhyamam : Carnatic.

Bulba wrote: "have you done any reasearch in music, got some degrees?"

Unfortunately, I have not formalized my study in music. Though I have began studying tabla in 1997. As there was no teacher available where I used live in New York, I had to pick up whatever I can from tapes, CDs, and watch a tabla player on video to see how sounds were produced. In late 1998, I came across David Courtney, a North Indian musician based in Texas, and verified my learning and realizations of the tabla with him. We kept in touch till 2000. Around 1999, I took up singing and harmonium and listened to tapes of thumri, bhajans, and other forms of lighter music. Learning how to sing became a true riyaaz and still is today for me. Around 2002, I shifted over to melody by getting an esraj and sitar. I decided to seriously listen and learn ragas and verify my knowledge and learning with any trained musician I come across. Around 2004, I was inspired by these great musicians and artists that I began teaching tabla in a very small scale. It was a very challenging task for me, but I hope I can become somewhat successful, by God's grace.

As far as degrees are concerned, I do hold a degree in Education and certification as a certified pharmacy technician.

Originally posted by: adwarakanath

Great merlin, my friend, who's a trained singer was with me, and she couldn't explain this post on carnatic music, bhaktaji! (she's a hindustani style trained singer). I should leave Carnatic music alone i guess. Otherwise what little i know of Hindustani, I am going to get confused there too.
By the way, she explained the Talas and stuff again and more lucidly to me...i now have gotten a good hang of it..er...maybe. Those compositions done yet, bhaktaji? I've roped in 5 singers till now.

Carnatic is definitely very complex in melody.. but not as complex as the thala, which I will admit, I would need an expert trained in Carnatic music to explain that one to me! 😊 Their method of thalam is very very different from the tala in North Indian music, because thalams in Carnatic music is not based on a theka. They have a bigger variety of division styles and classification styles. It is very scientific in nature.

As far as the compositions, I am debating on a couple of tunes. I will use a keyboard and a tabla machine to record a sample track to see which one you'll like. I usually did anytime I record. I like the bring the real instruments on the final stages of the recording.

Dear bhaktada - thanks for the answers. One clarification: is cadenced ga
the same as shuddha ga?