Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II

First Previous

Page

Next Last

Frequent Posters

Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 15 years ago

#731

Mayavi challenges Valli to a duel because of a "bitter enimity with Mayavi on account of a woman." There is no clue about who wronged whom first. Did Valli wrong Mayavi's woman or did Mayavi wrong Valli's woman? Mayavi challenges him to a duel and the rest is history as they say.

As far as Dhundubi is concerned, in Valmiki there is just a passing mention of "the demon Maya, elder than Dhundhubi." When describing Dhundhubi's fight with Valli there is no mention of this at all. It is very frustrating. I wish I knew Sanskrit well then it might be easier to figure it out. Now I am just placing my trust on the English translations and there is no clue as to the competence of the translator.

Dhundubi is a very powerful rakshas who is itching for a fight with anyone and everyone. Dhundubi goes to the ocean and challenges him to a fight. The ocean refuses and wisely transfers Dhundubi's attention to Himavan. Himavan refuses to fight with Dhundubi and tells him to go fight with Vali as Vali is the better match in valor for Dhundubi.

In this incident there is no mention of Mayavi or whether Dhubdubi is a brother of Mayavi by Valmiki. Valmiki just writes that Dhubdubi is full of arrogance because he has the strength of 1000 elephants. Therefore he goes around challenging all and sundry for a fight. Also, Dhundhubi is in the form of a buffalo.

As far as Tara and Rumaa being sisters, there is no mention of that. Actually Rumaa's name is mentioned only 2-3 times I think. Also, Sugriva mentions to Rama that Vali has taken his (Sugriva's) wife, that is all. There is no information on Rumaa at all. Her name is mentioned as Rumaa and not Roma. Later when Lakshman goes to Kishkinda to warn Sugriva for forgetting his duty to Rama, Rumaa is mentioned as standing next to Sugriva.

I hope this helps Vibs and Vrisha.

Quote

Vrish

@Vr15h

Stunner

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#732

Khalrika, thanks

Yeah, Valmiki is not explicit about who was @ fault, but the Sagars assumed it was Vali, and showed that molestation & death of Mayavani - Mayavi's wife - at the beginning of the episode.

One more thing - is there any clue about whether Vali's battles w/ Dundubhi & Mayavi took place before his battle w/ Ravan, or after? Reason this question occurs - Mayavi was said to be Mandodari's bro, and I was just curious whether the latter were trying to avenge Ravan's defeat, or Ravan was trying to avenge their deaths?

Also, the elder demon Maya you mention above was probably Maya, the father of Mandodari & Mayavi (and maybe even Dundhubi)

Edited by Vrisha - 15 years ago

Quote

Looks like you are new here. Register for free, learn and contribute.

Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 15 years ago

#733

Originally posted by: Vrisha
Khalrika, thanks

Yeah, Valmiki is not explicit about who was @ fault, but the Sagars assumed it was Vali, and showed that molestation & death of Mayavani - Mayavi's wife - at the beginning of the episode.

One more thing - is there any clue about whether Vali's battles w/ Dundubhi & Mayavi took place before his battle w/ Ravan, or after? Reason this question occurs - Mayavi was said to be Mandodari's bro, and I was just curious whether the latter were trying to avenge Ravan's defeat, or Ravan was trying to avenge their deaths?

Also, the elder demon Maya you mention above was probably Maya, the father of Mandodari & Mayavi (and maybe even Dundhubi)

Ok will check. Valmiki is not very clear about a lot of things. I wonder if the original Sanskrit is clear or if this is the way he wrote the epic. Anyway, I will do my best. 😆

Quote

Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#734

I have a question....

Was Sita found in the Earth or on it? In the Old Ramayan, they show Raja Janak finding Sita in a box dug into the Earth (this is also the version most movies use), but in the New Ramayan, the Earth splits and baby Sita emerges from it. Which version is true?

I also read another version where Raja Ranak finds Sita in the outskirts of Mithila in a ditch. He takes the baby, thinking it is abandoned.

Quote

Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 15 years ago

#735

Thank you so much Khalrika and Vrisha for all the information.

Sorry, I couldn't come online earlier. Thanks a lot, both of you.

Lalitha Janaki, I am not really sure about the answer to your question. Sita was born from the Earth - I am not clear as to how it actually happened. As far as I can understand from the translations, Sita was raised (or sprung up) from the field by the furrow Maharaj Janak used to plough the ritual field. No mention of the baby girl being in a basket or a box of any kind. I came to the conclusion that Sita must have come into existence right before Janak's eyes - when he was ploughing the field he must have witnessed Sita come into life as a baby girl as the furrow struck that particular place on the field. The reason I came to this conclusion was because Janak mentions that Sita was of 'non - uterine' birth, i.e., she was not born the normal way. If Janak had found the baby, there would have been no way to tell for certain that she was not born and Janak, as far as I know, spoke the truth.

I hope this makes sense and I was able to convey my thought coherently.

Quote

Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#736

Thanks Vibs :)

I have another question. Does it say in Valmiki Ramayan Uttar Kand whether the majority of Ayodhya was against Sita as queen or if it was just one Dhobi? Did Ramji go around his kingdom and listen to the talk of everyone like they showed in both serials or did he find out about the words of just one dhobi?

Also, can anyone tell me which verse this is written in please? I need it for another debate I am in.

Quote

Khalrika

@Khalrika

Voyager

Posted: 15 years ago

#737

Lalitha, answers to your questions:

1) Sita was found on the track of the ploughshare "even as I was ploughing the plot set apart for sacrifice, a female baby, who, was discovered while dressing the field and (as such) is widely known by the name of Sita." Gita Press translation of Valmiki Ramayan Balakand Canto 66

2) Gita Press translation of Valmiki Ramayan Uttarkand Canto XLIII (I think this is Roman numerals 43 but I am not sure, please check)

Rama asks Bhadra his spy "Bhadra! What are the talks of the town and the kingdom?" and so on then again "Leaving nothing, tell me everything exactly as it is. What are the good and ill words that the citizens speak?" and so on and again "Tell me with confidence and without fear and mental anguish, what ill the people in the town and in the country are speaking about me?"

Bhadra says with joined palms and calmly, "Listen how the citizens talk good and ill words about you in the crossroads (intersections), in the markets, on the streets, in the forests, and in the groves." (after the citizens praise Rama they go on to say)

"Having killed Ravana in the battled and fetched Sri Sita, Sri Rama took her into His house again..." " What must be the pleasure in his heart born out of conjugation with Sri Sita? why does Sri Rama not censure her, who formerly had been forcibly carried away by Ravana, placing her in his lap and even taken to Lanka, first, who went into the Asoka grove and remained under the control of the Raaksasas. Such conduct of our wives shall have to be suffered by us also since whatever a king does, the subjects follow."

Bhadra says "Thus, O King, the citizens of all the towns and the countryside pass remarks in so many ways."

There is no dhobi in Valmiki. I wonder where the dhobi story came from in movie and television. 😕

Quote

Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#738

Thanks so much Khalrika!

That's what I thought, that there was no Dhobi. I think it was a later interpolation to make the story 'more interesting' or 'Bollywoodish' because I never bought the story that Ramji exiled Sitaji because of the words of one Dhobi, it doesn't make sense. It makes more sense that nearly the entire kingdom was talking.

Quote

Janaki

@RamKiSeeta

Achiever

+ 6

Posted: 15 years ago

#739

Originally posted by: Vibhishna
Thank you so much Khalrika and Vrisha for all the information.

Sorry, I couldn't come online earlier. Thanks a lot, both of you.

Lalitha Janaki, I am not really sure about the answer to your question. Sita was born from the Earth - I am not clear as to how it actually happened. As far as I can understand from the translations, Sita was raised (or sprung up) from the field by the furrow Maharaj Janak used to plough the ritual field. No mention of the baby girl being in a basket or a box of any kind. I came to the conclusion that Sita must have come into existence right before Janak's eyes - when he was ploughing the field he must have witnessed Sita come into life as a baby girl as the furrow struck that particular place on the field. The reason I came to this conclusion was because Janak mentions that Sita was of 'non - uterine' birth, i.e., she was not born the normal way. If Janak had found the baby, there would have been no way to tell for certain that she was not born and Janak, as far as I know, spoke the truth.

I hope this makes sense and I was able to convey my thought coherently.

That makes sense, but even if she was found in a box dug into the earth, how would any normal baby survive for so long without oxygen? So I think even if we take that version of how Sita was found, Janak coming to a conclusion that she was Ayonija makes sense.

Quote

Vibhishna

@Vibhishna

Dazzler

+ 3

Posted: 15 years ago

#740

Originally posted by: _LalithaJanaki_

That makes sense, but even if she was found in a box dug into the earth, how would any normal baby survive for so long without oxygen? So I think even if we take that version of how Sita was found, Janak coming to a conclusion that she was Ayonija makes sense.

I couldn't agree with that fact, that's why I thought Sita was created. Just because Sita could survive in a box or under the Earth did not imply she was not born the normal way.

Taking an example from an era ahead, Jarasandh was born as two half babies and reunited by a demoness Jara. That didn't mean he wasn't born of normal birth. If a baby could survive, when he was born in half and then become a complete human being when reunited, but still be of normal birth why should Sita alone be a non - uterine birth?

Coming back to the same time lines, Hanuman could survive his journey to the Sun and the Sun's brilliance and still be normally born child, why couldn't Sita be a child born the normal way and survive in a box or underground?

Unless Janak was sure she was not born the normal way, he wouldn't say so. There are so many descriptions that he was a Brahma gnyani himself.

By the way, your signatures and avi are too good.

Edited by Vibhishna - 15 years ago

Quote

1 ... 72 73 74 75 76 ... 83

Doubts and Discussions from the Ramayan II - Page 74

Related Topics

Explore Topics